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07-20-2003, 09:56 PM | #1 | ||
Tyrannus Incorporalis
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Inherent Evil
I was recently reading through the Valinor = Heaven for Elves? thread when I came across an interesting remark by Kiah.
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Although it has been a topic of debate as to whether orcs were corrupted Elves or Men, it is said in the Silmarillion that Quote:
In The Two Towers, when Sam overhears the two orcs conversing, both agree that they would rather find an out-of-the-way residence and abide there with friends than serve the Dark Lord in the War of the Ring. This is certainly a convincing argument that they are not wholly evil, and are not always predisposed to plunder and murder. It is my humble opinion that they are corrupted by nature, merciless by need and because of the will of their master (Sauron, Morgoth, Saruman, etc.), and considered inherently "evil" only by circumstance.
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07-20-2003, 10:56 PM | #2 |
Wight
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I agree with you. imho, no race is completely evil or completely good. nothing is perfect. if orcs could go back to their original state, the elves, they probably would. I feel more pity than anything else for them
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07-21-2003, 01:14 AM | #3 |
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"They [sc. orcs] would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)" (Letter 153)
"I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190,1 where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin." (Letter 269) What else is there to say? I believe we have had this discussion at least once before, but for this thread's sake, let me add that while the notion of orcs being corrupted Elves may have been the idea at the time of Tolkien's writing of LotR, later theories should be given more importance here. What the quotes tell us is that there is of course perfection, but it lies solely with the Creator (and one might say therefore in creation as a whole). Because of the gravity of the origin of orcs, which does not change with a different idea of their beginnings, they are indeed "naturally bad". Furthermore, it is stated somewhere that orcs in fact loathed their own existance. |
07-21-2003, 02:32 AM | #4 | ||||
Essence of Darkness
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This may not seem entirely in keeping with the topic of this thread, which I realise. It does relate to Orcs in that they, like Melkor, represent the part of the mind of Illuvitar that contains inherent evil. The existence of Orcs is a product of the evilness that is a fundamental part of the world. When you say that Orcs are not totally evil; does an Orc have any chance of performing an act that is not either a) for the purposes of an evil master or b) for the purposes of their own gain? I don't think so. It may be that an Orc, in a natural, uncorrupted state, may not be the twisted and totally evil creature that we see them as. However, they are this. Under the influence of Morgoth and Sauron they are this way, if they were not in the beginning of their creation. (Remember that even in cases where they aren't serving an evil master, they still act evilly.) So yes, I would say that Orcs, under the domination of Melkor, are inherently evil. Sorry if the first part of my post was somewhat roundabout, but I thought it was necessary to sort of led up to it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. |
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07-22-2003, 03:05 PM | #5 | ||
Tyrannus Incorporalis
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07-22-2003, 05:02 PM | #6 |
Deathless Sun
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I don't believe that a race can be inherently evil. I actually pity the entire race of Orcs, because they are being forced to do things that they were too afraid to refuse. Look at the Iraqis as an example. We can't claim that all Iraqis, or all Saudis, are evil just because a few leaders are evil. Why blame an entire race, or entire country, for the actions of a Saddam or an Osama bin Laden? Fear can drive a person to do many things that they normally wouldn't do. Most of the time, it's not even their fault. That's why, don't blame the Orcs, put the blame where it's deserved, on Sauron (and Morgoth).
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07-24-2003, 02:54 PM | #7 | |
Wight
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I find it hard to beleive that orcs are wholy evil becuase, although tortured and mutated beyond reconition, they were still created from the elves. And what creature with such orgin could truly be evil? This also qualifies for any further mutation of the orcs, such as uruk-hai. The trolls I do not beleive to be evil becuase to me they are not a race of setimate creatures, such as humans,elves or even orcs, so they cannot have morals such as good and evil, so how can they be put under one of these headings? Dragons I find hard to place. There is little detail to suport them as not wholy evil except for they are to qualified as Kelvar (Animals) I do not know if this is how Tolkien qualified them, but it is how I do. So this works with most of the races which are considered evil except for Balrogs. Balrogs are maiar. But then their whole race is not evil, becuase you have all the maiar that still work for Eru and his ways. This works for Sauron and Melkor too.
But also, you cannot have such a race as is wholy good. I take a quote from a disney film here (To my shame) which I find so true: Quote:
And I'll shut up now, most of that will be random... Sorry!
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07-25-2003, 02:03 AM | #8 | |||||||
Essence of Darkness
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Hang on. Lord of Angmar first:
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Basically, Illuvitar is the source of everything. Finwe: Quote:
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They are still inherently evil though, even more so because they are the spawn of the most evil of all -- Morgoth. It isn't their fault, but they are this way nonetheless. Dynaviir was next. Quote:
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Ok, I think that about covers it (So I don't need to start on you, chainsaw [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. My apologies for making my post in this format, but I thought I'd just say what I though about the main material raised in the posts here against mine. BTW, when you argue that Orcs cannot be evil, because they are 'an entire race', you seem to forget that the rest of Ea in fact exists. Rather than looking at the Orcs as being everything in your vision, consider them more as a part of the greater world, which does contain the good to make up for the Orcs' evil. Finally, think; did the Orcs ever show anything other than rottenness, and did they ever have a redeeming feature? It is not their fault as such that they are that way, I agree with you -- but the fact is that they really are. |
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07-25-2003, 09:38 AM | #9 | |
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I think you are wrong, Gwaihir. I think they cannot be held entirely accountable simply because they were corrupted and enslaved by a force far greater than they, and because of their enslavement and their hideousness they were hated forever by Elves and Men. But obviously, did they not serve Morgoth or Sauron, at least a few of them would wish not to meddle in the affairs of the other races of Middle-earth, as illustrated in Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation in the Two Towers.
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I am not implying that NO ORC is entirely evil, but rather that as a race they appear utterly evil mostly because of the enslavement of their will's to an evil master. If the orcs were free of this evil master (be it Sauron or Morgoth), I would choose to take pity on them and leave them alone, as Aragorn the King of Gondor decided to do after he won the War of the Ring, giving them a land of their own. I doubt King Elessar would give any land in his kingdom to an unpitiable and entirely evil race.
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07-27-2003, 02:08 AM | #10 | ||
Essence of Darkness
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I think you misunderstand me. The Orcs, it is true, cannot be held 'accountable' as you say, Lord of Angmar, and yes, they are to be pitied. It isn't their fault. They simpy are that way. This does not change the fact that they are evil beings.
As I said in that quote-ridden post, the fault does indeed lie with Morgoth. He corrupted the Orcs, and as a result of this, they have become evil. Stupid and evil. I do not hold them responsible for their being this way, but, unfortunately, they are. Quote:
There are no nice Orcs in Middle-Earth. They are all cruel and nasty. Edit: The quote Quote:
[ July 27, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ] |
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07-28-2003, 06:10 PM | #11 | |
Wight
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From Letter 183
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If one takes the view that Orcs were talking beasts without a 'rational soul', then Orcs can act in an evil way, but are not evil. In order to be evil, one must first be rational. [ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ] [ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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07-28-2003, 07:22 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Since the orcs were corrupted elves in the beginning, and if elves were considered to have a soul(were they?), then orcs would still have a soul. From what I've seen, Morgoth could not destroy anything that had been created, neither could he create. He could only corrupt. So, the orcs would have souls, corrupted though they may have been. That said, they would be considered to be rational beings.
Being rational, they would have a choice to live evilly or not. (I do believe that every person has some evil inherent in their natures, but this is a personal belief.) The orcs chose to behave evilly, even though they were intimidated and maligned. So, I would conclude that any race could fall into evil if enough of the people chose to live that way continually. Because of the inherent evil in the soul, every race has the potential for evil. Peace
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07-28-2003, 07:32 PM | #13 | ||
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
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Perhaps in the beginning, yes, they were good, but it seems these beings -- corrupted elves or simply orcs, whatever you wish to call them -- they enjoy what they do. When were the elves first imprisoned? The First Age. That was the beginning. Star Jewel's point: Quote:
I do not agree with that quote anymore than I agree with the fact that a race cannot be completely 'evil' either. I guess we must first place a definition to the word 'good', but since that would be an entirely complex and confusing discussion, I will go with a basic idea. I believe more along the lines that all people of all races have the capability of doing evil. But, even when they do evil, they are not completely evil. It is when they indulge in it, or enjoy it. Enjoying it is a big problem. Also, I believe the road to evil can also be paved with fear. (Think Yoda. Just because he's got Fozzy Bear's voice doesn't mean he isn't really wise) Actually, I believe that, in reality, any emotion can lead to the doing of evil, if we let that emotion take control. Even love can lead to it, if we use it in a twisted way seperate from its true meaning. So, there's the fear in the Orcs, the corrupted elves. They follow their master, fearing his wrath, and they kill and pillage as he says. Then they are rewarded. It's like teaching a dog to stop doing something and a trick, at the same time. Soon, anyone or anything that lets their fear take control of them so, will be molded into evil. I believe that all elves, men, hobbits, and dwarves (and all humans in the real world) can control that fear. But, the Elves from Cuivenen, in their tortured and corrupted state, would not be as able to. Overall, I believe some people/things are truly evil. But for the most part, people are good, if not to a heroic extent. Still, even those people can be heroes... Also, I will never pity Orcs. *mumbles* And Gandalf be darned... Those are just some of my thoughts. I think they might be a bit jumbled, but I have trouble wording my thoughts at times...especailly on a topic so complex and interesting as this. I hope to be back with more! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] -Durelin [ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Durelin ] |
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07-28-2003, 08:39 PM | #14 | |||
Wight
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let me add that while the notion of orcs being corrupted Elves may have been the idea at the time of Tolkien's writing of LotR, later theories should be given more importance here. Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring pg 218 Now the Eldar are immortal within Arda according to their right nature. But if a fea (or spirit) indwells in and coheres with a hrondo [>hroa] (or bodily form) that is not of its own choice but ordained, and is made of the flesh or substance of Arda itself, then the fortune of this union must be vulnerable by the evils that do hurt to Arda, even if that union be by nature and purpose permanent. For in spite of this union, which is of such a kind that according to unmarred nature no living person incarnate may be without a fea, nor without a hrondo [>hroa], though the fea cannot be broken or disintegrated by any violence from without, the hrondo [>hroa] can be hurt and may be utterly destroyed. Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring pg 399-400 Melkor ‘incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as the control the hroa, and ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all ’matter’ was likely to have a ’Melkor ingredient’, and those who had bodies, nourish by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, toward Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate from, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
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07-28-2003, 08:50 PM | #15 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Also, I do agree with Sharku on the 'later theories', but I was using that one for the sake of argument as it has not been completely disproven, only fallen out of favour with some. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace
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07-28-2003, 08:55 PM | #16 | |
Wight
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I'm sorry, but I thought this discussion was purely in the context of Tolkien's Mythology.
Here is a quote from Morgoth's Ring that describes one of Tolkien's later views on Orcs. From section VIII of Myths Transformed In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberatley perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Quote:
[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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07-28-2003, 09:29 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Always learning. Thanks, Nils. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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07-28-2003, 09:33 PM | #18 |
Wight
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No problem. If there was only one book from HoME that I could get, I think it would be Morgoth's Ring.
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07-29-2003, 02:32 AM | #19 | |
Essence of Darkness
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I would not say that Elves were 'corrupted', Durelin, but certainly they were corruptible -- to a very small extent. Either way, the blame does lie with Morgoth rather than the Orcs themselves. The Orcs, whether mockeries or direct corruptions, existed because of Morgoth. They are filled with Morgoth's evil, and it is because of this that they are not capable of good in any form. As I have said, their entire nature was twisted towards badness. Nils, that quote of yours is a funny one. It is plain to see that individual Orcs did in fact have their own minds and selfishnesses, and it would really be hard to believe that they did not, and were merely talking creatures (any creature that talks surely has an intelligence at least akin to Man's). Then there are other beings; 'any beast that talks' may expand to the debate on the essence of dragons, although it is said somewhere that dragons are filled with a 'fell spirit' or something like that. You know, Nils, we don't have to take every comment that Tolkien said as the ruling word on his work. Obviously his word generally has a lot more importance that the word of another observer, but still, when he says certain things he is sort of acting as an observer himself. The one about evilness in the body rather than the soul, is, I think, an idea of Tolkien's rather than a concrete ideal of his writings. At any rate, the writings can be interpreted by a reader who does use his own ideas of this sort to judge these things for himself. Well, that's how I see it. And I assure you that this is still within the confines of Tolkien's literature. |
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07-29-2003, 08:06 AM | #20 |
Deathless Sun
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Oh Eru! According to Helka's theory, I'm definitely a goner! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Fear can drive the best of people to do the most evil things, and to make the stupidest mistakes. It takes events out of their control, and into "The Big Guy"'s hands. It has been scientifically proven that in moments of complete fear (or anger), one's IQ drops, so it becomes harder to reason your way out of a tight spot like that. Once people get frightened enough, they will be willing to do anything, absolutely anything, to get out of that tight spot, and big, evil Dark Lords like Morgoth and Sauron love capitalizing on that.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
07-29-2003, 08:33 AM | #21 | ||||
Wight
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The question isn't 'every comment that Tolkien said', the question is which comment that Tolkien made. Quote:
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07-29-2003, 12:15 PM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I do not believe that there is such a thing as "pure evil," not in orcs, or even in Morgoth himself. While I cannot think of anything Morgoth has done that is good, I still believe that there is potential for good, even in Morgoth. Morgoth began the same as the other Ainur.
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07-29-2003, 12:51 PM | #23 | |
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But this brings me to my conundrum on this issue. Are Orcs capable of redemption after their death? It would seem strange that, being denied the ability to redeem themselves during their life, they should be given the opportunity to do so following their death. And yet the concept of a beings which (through no choice of their own) are born (or spawned or whatever) as inherently evil being denied any possibility of redemption does not, for me, square with the concept of Iluvatar as a benevolent and wholly good Creator.
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07-29-2003, 01:09 PM | #24 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In a bit of a branch off of Saucepan Man's question, what happened to the orcs after Sauron's demise? Was the will of Morgoth still active in them, or were they left mere shells of themselves? Or yet, going with the theory that they were corrupted elves(even though this may not be true), would the echo of their former fair nature come through?
Peace
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07-29-2003, 01:16 PM | #25 |
Tyrannus Incorporalis
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After Sauron was vanquished, King Elessar gave to his minions a land of their own, where they could abide in peace as long as they did not disturb any of the other races of Middle Earth. Certainly Aragorn would do no such thing if he thought they had absolutely NO capacity for good.
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07-29-2003, 01:24 PM | #26 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks, Lord of Angmar.
My question was basically about what happened to the orcs themselves, their souls(or lack thereof) or motivations, not really what happened to their living areas or whatnot. But you're right. I doubt that Aragorn would have given them space if he thought they were totally evil and should be 'dealt with.' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace
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07-29-2003, 01:48 PM | #27 | |
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Here is a continuation of the quote from Morgoth's Ring that I posted earlier.
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07-29-2003, 11:56 PM | #28 | ||||
Essence of Darkness
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Right, I've got something extremely important to say a bit later on in this post, so please read it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Ok, this is the pre-mentioned 'important bit'. Saucepans, you are right -- the though of an Orc ever accomplishing something other than evil is an incredibly difficult one. As for the supposed setting-free of the Orcs that people are talking about, as evidence that they were not fully irredeemable, I think that the quote may be mistaken. This is what it says in the RotK; Quote:
I am supported in this reckoning by the lengthy article, 'Men of Darkness' (http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/Men_of_Darkness.html if you want to see it). Quote:
So I don't think Aragorn found anything redeemable in the Orcs, either. He would have most likely destroyed them in Mordor in his rides East with the Rhohirrim. The Orcs are considered, rightly, fair game for anyone, and after Sauron's downfall they had no place in the world. |
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07-30-2003, 08:46 AM | #29 | |
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Gwaihir, when Tolkien used the word "slaves" I do not think that he intended it to be so narrow as to limit it to one race. I believe that this term encompasses all the minions of Sauron, of which the chief party was orcs. But this is not the real question at hand. Neither of our theories can be proven or disproven on this matter. Let us consider it a moot point in this debate.
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I personally believe that Tolkien valued redemption in life and in afterlife, as a devout Catholic. Redemption from evil deeds is one thing, but from evil being? Christianity teaches us (and I'm sure that Tolkien, being a Catholic, has been taught and influenced by this view) that no one being is entirely good or evil. I believe that Tolkien did not have no hope for the orcs, although he may have made them out to be gruesome and malevolent, since they were bent to the will of a far greater power. Given his Catholic background I would say he did not condemn orcs in his works to be creatures of an inherent and unfailing banefulness. This is just an idea, but perhaps it occurred to him that orcs should be cleansed and absolved of their sins after the Final Battle, when the doom of Morgoth was finally full-wrought. I am quite unsure if there is textual evidence for or against this; it is just a thought based on the religious theology that is characteristic of Professor Tolkien. [ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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07-30-2003, 08:50 AM | #30 | |||
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The fallen state is an important aspect of evil in Tolkien's Myth. It is a concept that Tolkien brought into his works from his Catholic beliefs. If evil is defined in the context of the 'fallen state', then the original state was good. Eru has not fallen. Eru is not evil. It seems to me that you are trying to say that since Eru gave his creation free will that any decision that his creation makes must be one Eru himself would have made. The only way one could draw such a conclusion is through a faulty view of free will. Lord of Angmar, Quote:
[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ] [ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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07-30-2003, 10:17 AM | #31 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree with Nils.
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07-30-2003, 11:22 AM | #32 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Quote:
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Ergo, logically, Gwaihir is correct when he says: Quote:
[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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07-30-2003, 11:32 AM | #33 | ||||
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Eru defines right and wrong. What ever Eru does is good. Anyone who rebels against Eru's plan is evil. Just because he allowed others to rebel against his plan does not mean that Eru rebels against his plan. It appears to me that your logic is faulty.
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07-30-2003, 11:37 AM | #34 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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07-30-2003, 12:44 PM | #35 | |
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Quote:
Some may think you are suggesting that Illuvatar has the capability of committing acts that are evil, although if he acted in an evil way it could no longer be considered evil because he is the Creator of Ea and his actions pertaining to Ea are therefore the "right" ones. If you mean to say that the idea of evil and of treachery is a concept familiar to Illuvatar, then I strongly agree. How could this concept not be familiar to Him who is the Judge of what is evil or not? I think what you are saying is that Illuvatar knows and understands his own (and therefore everyone else's) concept of evil. I agree, but I do not think he has an "evil" side or that the possibility of malevolence towards the beings of Ea is within him. Remember, although, as he says, everything has his roots in Eru, that does not mean that all of his traits must be conveyed in his offspring. Cannot the child of a philanthropist grow up to be a murderer or a rapist? The evil in Melkor does not necessarily have to come DIRECTLY from any characteristic in Illuvatar.
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...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence. |
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07-30-2003, 01:00 PM | #36 | ||||
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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Woo...my head hurts... |
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07-30-2003, 01:06 PM | #37 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 129
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Melkor ‘incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as the control the hroa, and ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all ’matter’ was likely to have a ’Melkor ingredient’, and those who had bodies, nourish by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, toward Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate from, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits. Oops, I see I posted this same quote earlier in the thread. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] [ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37 |
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07-30-2003, 02:26 PM | #38 |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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Ah, of course. Yet again, my beliefs clash with the author.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I was just writing a overall investigation of the theme of Lord of the Flies, which I believe has a lot to do with inherent evil within the human heart. Then I was asked to give my opinion. So, sorry, I am still opinionating, my fault. Excellent observations, Nils! My hat goes off to you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] |
07-30-2003, 04:10 PM | #39 | ||
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,381
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Excellent discussion! There seem to be two separate issues being discusses here; whether a race such as orcs is inherently evil; and whether orcs possessed sentience. My favorite letter by JRRT (one which Sharku quoted earlier) addresses both issues.
As to the evil nature of Orcs, Tolkien said this: Quote:
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[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mithadan ]
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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07-30-2003, 04:22 PM | #40 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 129
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Quote:
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For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37 |
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