Female Nazgûl???

[Ghâshgûl]

Just a simple (maybe stupid) question for those who know Middle-Earth better than me, and who have read Tolkien's books in english:

Is it sure that all Nazgûl were male?

Ghâshgûl

[Kin-strife]

I guess it isn't 100% sure, but a female Nazgul is unlikely as there's no mention of any as far as I know. It is said in the Sil that those that used the nine rings of mortal men became in their day "kings sorcerors and warriors of old". No mention of Queens. That's all I can think of. Perhaps a more advanced Tolkien scholar can think of something more conclusive.

[Eldar14]

All the examples that I've seen seem to me all the accounts of the Nazgul refer to them using male terms (aka. Kings, men, etc.)

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Sexist comments aside, you know, I'm, only stating facts -- generally, men are better soldiers than women. As Sauron's most powerful servants, yes, I should say they were all male, for sure.

[Inziladun]

Given the scarcity of female warriors in Middle Earth and the reasons mentioned above, any of the Nazgûl being female does seem highly unlikely.

[Eldar14]

"Sexist comments aside"

Reading that gave me the idea that Sauron was probably a sexist, which would be one more reason for the Nazgul not to be female.

Weren't the Nazgul Kings of Men who were given the nine rings for men and enslaved by Sauron?

[Kin-strife]

Thinking of the sexist sauron remark, does anyone know of any mention of a female orc? Since orcs reproduced they had to have existed (unless they multiplied like gremlins) but I don't recall reading of any. Were orc parties unisex and, if not, what did an orc-maiden do all day? Were they just used as breeding machines or did they provide a more notewothy role in society?

[Eldar14]

There was a string somewhere regarding female orcs, but I can't seem to find it, not even with the search thing. I myself think that there were female orcs, even mixed in among the ranks, but since the Hobbit and LoTR were written from the Hobbits POV, and since female orcs were butt ugly, it wasn't written. Also, since orcs are twisted from elves, there would have to be female ones.

[Sharkû]

Most of our knowledge and speculation regarding female orcs has been laid down here.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

*can't help it* I'd just like to point out that a WOMAN...along with a "halfling" [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]...slew the Nazgul King...just in case all you guys forgot [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Inziladun]

Point taken. Éowyn was certainly an exeption, however.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

*curtsies* why thankyou [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kin-strife]

All you guys

And my I enquire how you derive sex from a name such as Kin-strife? It's not even a name.

[Halbarad]

Wasn't kin-strife the translated name of one of the slayer Giants in Stephen Donaldson's books? That would make it a name, albeit translated from giantish (I must digress). I agree tho- how does sex get derived from that?

[Aldaron]

I'd say that if the lady wishes to name herself Kin-Strife, she doesn't have to ask anyone's permission. Let's not get all snide and sexist.

[Inziladun]

It appears 'all you guys' was simply used to include everyone that had been posting in this thread. I don't think she literally meant everyone in here was male.

[Ghâshgûl]

Originally posted by Eldar14:
<STRONG>"Sexist comments aside"

Reading that gave me the idea that Sauron was probably a sexist, which would be one more reason for the Nazgul not to be female.</STRONG>

I see your argument:
Sexist = evil
Sauron = evil
--------------
Sauron = sexist

Hmmmm... With the same argumentation pattern you could say that Sauron was probably a racist. But how does this match to the fact that Saurons armies were the only ones in the Ring War (maybe in the whole history of Middle Earth?) where white and coloured people (and even orks) fought side by side?

Ghâshgûl

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]

[Halbarad]

It's not as simple as A & B= racist= 1
The armies were joined by their allegiance to Sauron (based through fear- he was their God after all) so the statement that he was racist still works because he hates everyone so it doesn't make much difference. Ci?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Why do you say that Sauron was a sexist? He probably wasn't, actually. I don't think Ainur would have much truck with that sort of thing, what with female Ainur being of the same powerfulness as male Ainur.

Re the orc question; there would be no reason not to have female orcs bolstering the fighting forces. Orcs are completely expendable. Having the women-folk in the orc armies, even if they aren't as strong as the male ones, would still significantly increase the strength of the army.
Unless, of course, they were just used as breeding machines. They would be pregnant, and couldn't fight.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Inziladun's right [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I just lapsed into slang...hmm no I don't think Sauron's a sexist either...and referring to Gashgul's equations I once saw one that ended with woman=root of all evil

[Eldar14]

I've seen that equation too, and for those of you who haven't seen it, here it is:

"women take time and money", so
women=time x money

"time is money", so
time=money
so
women=moneyxmoney

"money is the root of all evil," so
money=(square root of)evil
so
moneyxmoney=evil
so
women=evil

"women are evil"

[KayQy]

Was it so good you had to say it twice? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't think Sauron was necessarily sexist or racist. You know, the "I'm not racist: I hate everybody!" He would look at people of whatever race or gender mainly as either tools or threats. However, I think he would be all for sexism and racism in general, as ways to spread more darkness and hate, and would most likely encourage it in any way he could.

And I've always considered the phrase "you guys" to be gender-neutral, unless there's also a "you girls" phrase running around nearby.

[Eldar14]

whoops, didn't notice I had posted that twice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eldar14]

About the arugment that if Sauron was sexist, why wasn't he racist.

#1: He was racist. He vehemently hated elves.

#2: The only proof that he wasn't racist is that he has multi-racial armies. Maybe the only reason he did this was to increase racism in the good armies. Fighting against another race might make them think that whole race is evel. Fighting against women probably would not have made the good soldiers sexist, so no point in having them in the ranks. And of course, there is no simple reason not to, other than him being a sexist.

[Kin-strife]

About the whole "all you guys" comment. I thought (most likely wrongly) that Èowyn was sugesting that all the previous posts were gender biased on their perceptions of women in Middle-earth. Like she was pointing out that a WOMAN slew the Nazgul king "just in case all you GUYS forgot". The second stress was mine and it's there that think I went wrong in my reading of the post. I wondered how she would know my sex. Obviously Aldaron took this to mean that I was of the female persuasion but that MIGHT not be acuarate. I'll leave you guessing. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Gwaihir the Windlord:
<STRONG>Sexist comments aside, you know, I'm, only stating facts -- generally, men are better soldiers than women. As Sauron's most powerful servants, yes, I should say they were all male, for sure.</STRONG>

there r decent women warriors take Eowyn for example. so there could have been a female nazgul

The probability of female Nazgul is slim to none, being since tolkien wrote about female of other species yet not of this one. If there were female Nazgul they were probably hidden or kept away for purposes of and more likely beyond our imagination.

[Mhoram]

Originally posted by Tz-Mc:
<STRONG>The probability of female Nazgul is slim to none, being since tolkien wrote about female of other species yet not of this one. If there were female Nazgul they were probably hidden or kept away for purposes of and more likely beyond our imagination.</STRONG>

NAZGUL(B.S.: 'those of the Ring or Rings') Nine beings, slaves of the Nine Rings and the chief servants of Sauron. Originally Men, perhaps Black Numenoreans, the Nazgul were each given one of the Nine Rings by Sauron in the Second Age....

-A Guide to Middle-Earth by Robert Foster

That is to say...the Nazgul were not a species or race, they were men become wraiths.

[Ghâshgûl]

#1: He was racist. He vehemently hated elves

Allow me to play the devil's advocate once again: Before complaining about Sauron hating elves, you should, for example, remember what was the principal occupation of the Rangers: Hunting and killing orcs. Why? Because they were orcs. For a ranger, beeing an orc was a capital crime and was instantly punished with death.

Is this not racism?

Ghâshgûl

[Finwe]

Actually come to think of it, Sauron was much more an equal oppurtunities employer than any1 else in ME. Anyone at all, could be in Saurons army, all you had to be was evil ( or easily swayed ). Can you imagine any circumstance where an Orc would be welcomed into to Rivendell or Gondor with open arms, even if they claimed to have seen the error of their ways.
So stop badmouthing poor old Sauron, he hasnt hurt anybody, well except for all the ones he hurt. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Halbarad]

As I said before Sauron was evil and hated everyone (yes probobly even the Mouth0 so his being racist is irrelevant

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Suron was racist; he vehemently hated the Elves.

I'd call that 'Speciesism', rather.

As for the comment on Eowyn. I'd think that most of the soldiers of the Mark were better fighters than Eowyn, even though she was indeed 'decent'.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

'decent' anddddd just happened to slay the Nazgul King

[Kin-strife]

I think that however good Èowyn was as a soldier was enhanced by the fact that she no longer feared death. This is what probably brought her face to face with the Nazgul King where most soldiers would rather have kept their distance. She couldn't have had nearly as much training as the other soldiers so it must have been a natural ability for her. Perhaps she would have been one of the greatest soldiers had she the training.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

She'd had the training, as befits an heir of Eorl the Young. Without training, do you think she could have gone into battle with the Lord of the Nazgul?

She slew the Witch-King; but as Kin-Strife says, she was aided by the fact that she no longer feared anything. Fear is what makes the Witch-king so powerful. Take that away, and you have a chance.

Originally Posted by Gwaihir the Windlord

She'd had the training, as befits an heir of Eorl the Young. Without training, do you think she could have gone into battle with the Lord of the Nazgul?

She slew the Witch-King; but as Kin-Strife says, she was aided by the fact that she no longer feared anything. Fear is what makes the Witch-king so powerful. Take that away, and you have a chance.

The above statement is trying to talk up Eowyn as though she was a match for the mighty WK. What a laugh! The WK was arguably the third most powerful opponent in ME, protected by a spell of invincibility that could only be broken by special spells, such as those used in the making of the enchanted blade used by Merry to wound him and break the spell. All Eowyn did was to finish the job of, same as what even a child could have done. The real credit was for Merry for his bravery, who had probably no idea of the power his sword had.

Otherwise, Eowyn would have probably slayed herself in her terror of the WK, before he landed the second blow to finish her. The only people that the WK could not have used his fear on to full effect would have been great lords and masters of sorcery on the same or higher level than the WK, i.e. Glorfindel, Gandalf etc. They would have nothing to fear of the WK, or no more than at least than he had of confronting them.

[Anguirel]

Sauron is sending his sexist minions to interfere with the cut and thrust of debate!

Seriously, old chap, I see your point, and you make it forcibly, but the fact remains that Eowyn killed him. Let's say one was fighting an enchanted rhinoceros that no one can hurt. Someone sticks a needle in it and *wham*! Behold! It's vulnerable. But still the small matter remains of killing an angry rhinoceros. It is this deed that Eowyn should be credited with.

As for the bit about her slaying herself with fear, about only Glorfindel, Gandalf et al being able to stand up to the King-the fearless Dernhelm of the books doesn't support your view-

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, Lord of Carrion!"

Even after her wound, she is ailing because the pulp is being beaten out of her-not in the slightest because she is frightened. She is berserk, as Theoden was, as her brother is later.

And what's more, there is no essential link between power and fear. Earnur, a far less powerful figure than the Witch King, never shirked to challenge him. Nor are the powerful necessarily the brave-Gandalf revealed some unease about facing the Lord of the Nazgul in conversation with Denethor. There is simply no correlation. Just because Eowyn is young, mortal, and, most damningly, female, does not mean she by definition lacks courage. Indeed, courage born out of desperation is her strongest weapon.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Seriously, old chap, I see your point, and you make it forcibly, but the fact remains that Eowyn killed him. Let's say one was fighting an enchanted rhinoceros that no one can hurt. Someone sticks a needle in it and *wham*! Behold! It's vulnerable. But still the small matter remains of killing an angry rhinoceros. It is this deed that Eowyn should be credited with.

But Merry's strike made it possible for Eowyn to dispatch the WK - it wasn't simply that Merry showed the WK was vulnerable - he wasn't vulnerable until Merry stabbed him. If Eowyn had stabbed him first nothing woulld have happened. Only the Barrow blade (wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor) could have made him vulnerable to Eowyn's blow. So, they both killed him. It was equivalent to Merry cutting off his bullet proof vest so that Eowyn sould shoot him. I don't see why she should get all the glory

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You know when you misread something that someone else posts? Like when I thought Anguirel was talking about Sauron's sexiest minions?

But I seem to have lost my way: why are we talking about Eowyn?