Dragons,Ungoliant, Ents , Eagles and Huan

[lindil]

The Real Findorfin posted in the Gwaihir in the Hobbit thread:

It seems that throughout all the works there are 'spirits' that dont seem to be Maia or valar, such as Ungoliant, Bombadil, dragons spirits, etc. I believe that the eagles, ents and huan, etc are of the same type.
And if this spirit group is not a group by itself, then I would think that they are a very low order of maia, perhaps the least powerful. But or course, that means Bombadil cannot be involved.

I will have to go with 'another order' of spirits.

I would like to offer my own hypothesis re: these [excepting Bombadil, whom I have reluctantly excepted JRRT's own unwillingness to classify him].

Dragons,Ungoliant, Ents and Eagles:
Originally Maia but became essentially incarnates upon reproduction.

I am not aware of any specific writings of JRRT on the subject that go beyond the word 'spirits'.

The fact that several of these were created or planned prior to the awakening of the Elves [ Ungoliant, Eagles and Ents I think] when there was nothing but Maia/Valar (and Bombadil [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) lends a certain inconclusive strength to the idea.

What is puzzling to me is [Ungoliant and dragons aside] is how some of these groups remain or were originally Immortal [Ents, Huan] but some were definetly not (Eagles for instance].

We will never know whether Glaurang was an encased maia who would have stayed immortal had he not been killed.

Overall, I think this is an area that JRRT only realized the chaos of later - after many elements were already in place [ Immortal Ents and generations of Eagles] and fully aware and speech capable Huan, etc... and he then tried to theorize a little in a way to harminze it all with the rest of the Legendarium, but seeing it was not really possible, more or less threw in the towel.

[Lord of Angmar]

Dragons,Ungoliant, Ents and Eagles:
Originally Maia but became essentially incarnates upon reproduction.

I do not believe that Ents and Eagles were originally Maiar. Eru heeded Yavanna's prayer and aided in the creation of the Ents, the Sherperds of the Trees, that they may defend the olvar, the trees and plants, from the axes of the Dwarves.

"When the Children Awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and [the Ents] will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared"

-Eru Illuvatar speaking through Manwe Sulimo

The fact the Eru created them does not make them Maiar (for he did also create and give life to Elves and Men, and they are not classified as Maiar). The Eagles of Manwe, similarly, were first conceived in the Song of the Ainur, and thus they came to Be, not Maiar nor Valar.

As for Ungoliant and the Dragons, it must be assumed that their case is similar to that of the Balrog's, spirits created by Illuvatar and corrupted by Morgoth, thusly under his dominion until their deaths. For Morgoth did not create any of these, having not the power to make life but only to mock it. It must therefore be assumed that he simply corrupted these spirits and trapped them in shells of flesh.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Tolkien said something about the nature of some of those 'creatures' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts (Huan)
Myths Transformed, VIII note 4; HoME 10

Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar
Myths Transformed, VIII; HoME 10

From this I understand that Huan was a Maia, but the Great Eagles weren't because Maia cannot reproduce themselves. Therefore, neither Ungoliant nor the Ents could be Maiar, for the same reason. I don't know how to classify them, either [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Lord of Angmar, you are of course correct to point out the non-Maia nature of the Ents and Eagles. Thanks for the quotes.

Amarie, your Huan and Sorontar quote is excellent. I reccalled the one in MT where JRRT grudgingly ponders [ or momentarily does] classify Huan as a beast, but it is nice to see it at least offset by an unresolved Maia possibility.

[HerenIstarion]

Just everybody naturally forgets humble fox who saw three hobbits under a three in the Shire

[lindil]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

If Maiar could not reproduce, then where did Luthien come from? Her mother was a Maia. So, if Melian could have a daughter, who's to say that Sorontar couldn't have children?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Oh, I daresay Ainur could reproduce; not with each other, though. Melian chose the 'trammels of Arda' and stayed with Thingol, loving him. These 'trammels' included children. She could not have produced Luthien with another Ainu. Only a Child of Illuvitar, who does have innate procreational powers, could have been Luthien's father.

Dragons, I believe, are some sort of creature that has been manufactured by Morgoth and inhabited by a spirit of some descript, perhaps a Maia or a Houseless Elf.

That Huan is a Maia is clear, I should think.

On Ungoliant and reproductivity.

Therefore, neither Ungoliant nor the Ents could be Maiar, for the same reason (reproduction)...

The thing about Maiar is that they do not seem to form actual 'races' or series' of types within themselves. The Ents are clearly a race of beings, distinct, incompatible with other beings, self-propogating -- and generally behaving quite un-Ainu like. I should think that they are most definitely a distinct creature, created by Eru. This may sound impossible at first, as the Children are supposed to be the only beings Illuvitar created in Arda; however I think I've managed to quite satisfactorily get around this.

The Dwarves are a similar case (and in fact the two races are created in the same chapter, Of Aule and Yavanna). They were bodily created by Aule, but it was the One that gave them true life. Aule's desire to create the race of Dwarves granted him this. Again, the Ents were based on the trees that Yavanna had already manufactured -- upon her desire for their animation or something of the like that would protect them, Eru granted trees life. (Not all trees, of course.) So the Onodrim came into being. Fits beautifully, doesn't it? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The Ents, while given life by Illuvitar, were not actually created by him any more than were the Dwarves.

Thanks for this thread, by the way, it's very interesting. The discussion of reproductivity of Maiar and, more specificically, the origin of Ungoliant which until now I was totally assured of as being Ainurin. I have reconsidered this opinion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], although I still think towards my original leaning.

She could very well have been a Maia. The Ainur were granted with powers of creation, although not with the power of creation of free-thinking, really intelligent -- perhaps Ungoliant's brand of this was the divulging of hundreds of foul, gigantic spider-creatures? Interesting. She also seems to have lived, or been capable of living, a very long time; furthermore, she is not a normal creature of Arda. The possibility given that she was instead some kind of earthly product of the Music is an unlikely if not empossible one, though (see below). A third, better possibility is that she was an actual creation of one of the Ainur, obviously an evil one -- but even then, how could she have been imbued with the powers and intelligence that she was imbued with, and why did she live in Aman?

If she was a product of the Music, then she would presumably have been like Bombadil -- believed to be a sort of embodiment of the Music. This is impossible, as she is totally unlike Bombadil and does not fill the same role. There is the very remote possibility that she was some sort of by-product of the Dischord of Melkor, though, dark and non-musical.

Note: That she self-destructed out of her own desire to devour things is an interesting thing to note. I seem to be too tired to think properly at the moment though, so I'll make this the end of my post.

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Just everybody naturally forgets humble fox who saw three hobbits under a tree in the Shire

True [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And we have also forgotten the spirit of Gurthang, the River-woman, ...

If Maiar could not reproduce, then where did Luthien come from?

Melian could have children because she choose to incarnate completely as an elf, as is explained by Tolkien in the following quote (bold is mine):

Lúthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the Máyar, the people of the Valar, (...) Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves
The Shibboleth of Fëanor, note 53, HoME 12

Form this text it seems that Tolkien didn't wanted to allow any other Maia than Melian to reproduce, but he may have reconsidered it later and allowed other Maiar to fully incarnate and reproduce themselves ...

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I have found the following quote in the Book of Lost Tales 1:

About them fared a great host who are the sprites of the trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nernir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet they must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making
The Coming of the Valar, HoME 1

Then, at least in the early mithology, there was room for other spirits different than the Ainur, because they didn't participate in the Music. I am not really sure that Tolkien had ever abandoned the idea of this spirits coming to Arda and not being Ainur. In my opinion, this could be the explanation of the origin of Tom, the River-woman, Ungoliant, and all of this strange creatures that cannot be classified as Maiar. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Noxomanus]

Interesting and it could really be the explanation for these kind of creatures (possibly including the spirits from the pass of Caradhras as well),though Ungoliant doesn't seem like a pixie or a fairy to me...

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Neither to me [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

But I think that the sentence 'for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it,' applies quite well to Ungoliant [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[FingolfintheBold]

Also pixies and sprites and brownies in Tolkien's mind (and therefore in ME) are probably very different from the normal association with the terms. Most people hear elf and think of a small pointy-eared person because they have forgotten how things used to be and only remember a shadow of true elven-kind. Someone hears pixie, they think of Tinkerbell for the same reason.

Aso, if the ruling spirits of ME could take different forms the others not ellaborated on probably could, too. Hence a water sprite or something being Goldberry and some kind of brownie or fairy being Ungoliant.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

'for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it,'

How do we know that Ungoliant was older than the world? She only ever appeared after it was already created, after all.

Goldberry was surely a Maia. I wouldn't have thought there was much case for a suggestion to the contrary. She did not have children.

Most, if not all, of these spirits of the land that are mentioned would be Maiar. How many Maiar there are we don't know, but the forms they took and the strengths they all possessed varied immensely. There are a few anomalies, but don't include obviouslu un-anomalical ones like Goldberry in it.

[lindil]

If Bomabadil is definetly nota Maia [according to JRRT] how can we say anything definite about Goldberry?

Much more can be said about the spirits before time mentioned above. I need to re-read it all and check sources myself.

But as for Ungoliant, I agree Gwaihir, we only see her in Avathar [the southern shores of the Undying Lands] after Aman has been established. From the paragraph 2 ch. 8 in the Silm it says that

some of the eldar "have said...she may have descended from the darkness that lies about Arda...and that in the begining she was one he corrupted to his service."

Sounds pretty Maia-like to me.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Goldberry did not have children, as far as we know, but she was the daugther of the River-woman [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And about Ungoliant she is not part of Arda, and in this quote it is suggested that she is older than Arda, at least this is how I understand the words 'in the beginning' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service
Of the Darkening of Valinor; The Silmarillion

EDIT:
Lindil, I have read your post after writing mine [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I agree that from these words Ungoliant seems to be a Maia. The only problem is that she had children. Was Ungoliant an exception, like Melian, or was Melian the only exception?

Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves
The Shibboleth of Fëanor, note 53, HoME 12

From this quote it seems that Melian was the only exception, but maybe this was not Tolkien's final decission on the subject ...

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[lindil]

Goldberry did not have children, as far as we know, but she was the daugther of the River-woman

Bullseye, Amarie.

I had missed that completely.

I think, that there are 2 ways to look at the River Mother/Daughter situation.

1> They are part of the

the Nernir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet they must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making

mentioned from Lost Tales I, but that subsequently disappear from the Legendarium.

This can not be proven as far as I know, just a hypothesis.


2> Tolkien put them in with perhaps a sub-concious nod to the above, but in 'The Hobbit'-like fashion were part of the story in a way similar to Stone Giants and Beorn, that could not be fully explained within the greater mythology.

I have not read all of the Return of the shadow to see what kinds of notes or alternates it may give to Goldberry. The Letters may also have something to say.

[Finwe]

The way that I see it, Melian was the only Maia to fall in love with an Elf. She was probably given a special dispensation of some sort so that she could permanently inhabit her fana, as one of the Elves. She still retained her "special powers" as a Maia, but she assumed the body of an Elf (depending on which description you read).

As for Ungoliant, if we stick to the theory that Maiar cannot reproduce among themselves, then what about the fact that she was the Mother of All Spiders (figuratively and literally). It is said that she mated with the lesser spiders, and devoured them, and thus, produced a brood of spiders, like the Mirkwood spiders. We're not sure what those lesser spiders were, if they were escaped creations of Morgoth or something like that. But if they were also Maiar, or at least lesser Maiar inhabiting the forms of spiders like Ungoliant, then they couldn't have reproduced.

[Lord of Angmar]

I have always found interesting the topic of monsters and beasts in Middle-earth, as things like the dragons and spiders are never fully explained by Tolkien. It is my assumption that they are entities created at the beginning of the world, maybe always in their respective semblances, maybe only as spirits, who, like Morgoth, became enamoured of darkness and evil.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, I may well come to wish I hadn't said that last thing about Goldberry in such assuredness [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But Amarie, do you think you could perhaps give us the quote in which Golberry's 'River-Woman' ancestry is stated? She is the 'river-daughter', i.e. a spirit of the river, but I have never heard of her described as the daughter of an actual person.

If the statement that she is the 'daughter of the River-Woman' can in fact be found, still it doesn't mean she was the actual offspring of this River Woman. This quote could simply mean that she is close in kinship with, closely tied with or a servant of some greater spirit of the water that is unnamed. It may well just mean that she was the daughter of the river directly (which incidentally is the only record of her lineage, that is directly to the river, that I have heard). So, for the moment, I still believe her to be Maia. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Although a slight problem does arise, however, even if we are in fact dealing with a mistaken quote here. The Ainur are of course the children of no-one but the thought of Illuvitar, certainly not of rivers... but, this can probably be brushed aside as a declaration of closeness and kinship with the river rather than creation by it, similar to what I said above about her supposed parentage by a River Woman. Anyway, don't hold back if you can dispute any of this, as always.

As for the pixies and non-Ainurin spirits mentioned in HoME; it is highly unlikely that these would be or any relevance to later Tolkien works, any more than the original notion of Britain being Tol Eressea. If such spirits existed in contemporary Tolkien, they would have been stated in the Sil at least. They are not. Since the number of Ainur is probably supposed to be very great, it is possible that Tolkien expanded the race of the Ainur to take over from the pixies in the population of Arda by spirits. This notion, I think, certainly a very early one, can I think be placed only in the 'first' mythology of Tolkien that is quite different from the final version, and contains much that does not come through into the later mythological development. (The 'Stone Giants' in the Hobbit can probably also be ruled out as a discarded idea of Tolkien's, that did not 'actually' exist in the final mythology.)

'...as things like the dragons and spiders are never fully explained by Tolkien.'(Angmar)

Dragons are sort of explained. They are created by Morgoth in body, inhabited by an evil spirit of origin unknown (Maia or Elvish, perhaps).

Most of the 'monsters' of Arda can be explained as having been created by Ainur, whether of the Valar or of Morgoth, the races of the Orcs and Trolls being a couple of the ones that apparently still are shrouded in mystery. The spiders that Ungoliant mated with to produce the 'giant spiders' may have actually been a race with origins similar to the unexplained Trolls. Perhaps they were simply one of the evil breeds of monster created by Morgoth. The two may of course be the same. Another thing is their intelligence; the giant spiders of Mirkwood are intelligent things and can think, which adds further mystery to the whole thing and lends weight to an Orc/Troll-like origin. However there are animals that seem to have been gifted with intelligence, like the fox, the thrushes and perhaps the Eagles -- although these may also have a deeper origin, as if may be that intelligence has to come from somewhere and go somewhere in the mythology. Animal intelligence is one thing and seems to come from the Ainur, but the human-like intelligence that some animals posess is something different. Was it within the power of the Ainur to bestow such intelligence, or does it come from Eru only? This may be true. Aule could not give the Dwarves their own free will, and he was one of the mightiest of the Valar.

(Thanks for pointing this out, Finwe, that Ungoliant may be of Maiarin origin if the creatures she mated with were another race. But then perhaps she was herself of this race, the greatest of this race? The only female among smaller, weaker male insects?)

Finally, as I'd better end this post up =/, I should point out that Ungoliant's properties of evilness and darkness were incredibly great. This may point to some sort of Maiarin/unearthly origin, but then remember that the flying steeds of the Nazgul (which were beasts created by Morgoth) seemed also to have this property -- although to nowhere near the great proportions in which it was found in Ungoliant. Interesting. Well, that's all, I can't bear to write any more. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

But Amarie, do you think you could perhaps give us the quote in which Golberry's 'River-Woman' ancestry is stated?

OK, Gwaihir, I accept the challenge [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter; (...)
Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. (...)
Said Tom Bombadil: "Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!"(...)
Lamps gleamed within his house, and white was the bedding;
in the bright honey-moon Badger-folk came treading,
danced down under Hill, and Old Man Willow
tapped, tapped at window-pane, as they slept on the pillow,
on the bank in the reeds River-woman sighing
heard Barrow-wight in his mound crying.

The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

2> Tolkien put them in with perhaps a sub-concious nod to the above, but in 'The Hobbit'-like fashion were part of the story in a way similar to Stone Giants and Beorn, that could not be fully explained within the greater mythology.

Yes Lindil, I agree with you in that this is a possibility. Even though Tolkien abandoned most of his earlier mithology, some part of it could sub-counciously have remained in the later mithology.

And there is also a third possibility that I have just think of now, while writing this post: Tolkien wanted to leave parts of the background of ME unexplained to readers, as he says in his letters. Could it be then that he, deliberately, eliminated these parts of the later Silmarillion, just to leave some misteries to us?

Of course, this is mere speculation, and I can be totally wrong [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

The Professor loved mysteries, and I daresay he especially loved putting in little mysteries in his books that intrigued readers. Most likely, that is the explanation.

[lindil]

Amarie - thanks for the Bombadil quote - it certainly confirms what I was too lazy to look up [ and the challenge was to you personally, so I rationalized, why not wait... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ]

as for your idea of:

Could it be then that he, deliberately, eliminated these parts of the later Silmarillion, just to leave some misteries to us?

I suggested the sub/semi-concious idea, because except for the Ainulindale, the Silmarillion [as found in vol's 3-5 and 10 and 11] and the LotR was composed without visual reference to the Book of Lost tales [according to CJRT].

So I think it is quite plausible that many subtleties that were lost in compression and never regained during the POst LotR decompression of the Silm material still lingered on. The whole 'Trres of Kortirion ' being a sort-of example. [see the HoM-E/UT Society thread.]

It never appears in a Silm or legendarium manuscript, but it's radical and far reaching implications are still kicking around in his brain, and certainly influencing the way he views the Elves and their history, and view of themselves.

[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[FingolfintheBold]

We also need to remember that just because something is more alive or powerful in ME (such as Huan) dosen't mean its necessarily inhabited by a maia's spirit or any other kind of spirit. Things in ME are already much more alive than in our world, such as the fox and the trees. Huan, Carcharoth the Wolf, and even Ungoliant may only have been creatures originally concieved by the music like other animals, only they were the first of their race, and so were abnormally powerful and gifted. The oliphants in LotR was much larger and more majestic than our's today because they were closer to the original animals which were no doubt splendid in deed.

Just a thought...

[lindil]

Good point FtB, however I do not think it strictly applies to 'animals' like Huan who had they stayed in Valinor, would have been Immortal, and perhaps had he not had a special doom, would still have been so.

But I think you sre correct in postulationg a basic entropic force in M-E that wears everything down to a greater or lesser extent after a period of early growth.

The Dunedain, Elves, The Ents etc, either inidvidually or collectively they suffer the effects of living in a fallen and 'marred' world.

I definitely believe that at least the eagles
and the Ents were not maiar. The Ents, according to the Silmarillion were created at Yavanna's request to protect the trees from destruction. I am not sure about the origin of Bombadil. He was around before the children of Iluvatar, but I do not believe he
was a maia. As for Huan, he was a hound of Orome, although I cannot find a reference to his origin.
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Lol, thanks Amarie. Not trying to change the facts to fit my theory, but the River Woman could well be another Maia, Goldberry's superior perhaps.

Either way, Goldberry is not like Tom. Tom is neither a Maia, nor is he anyone's son.

Johnny, you show promise. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] You're right, the Ents are definitely not Maiar, but an Illuvitar-sparked race. I believe the Eages to be similar, sparked from birds by Eru as were the Ents from trees.

The oliphants in LotR was much larger and more majestic than our's today because they were closer to the original animals which were no doubt splendid in deed.

Either that, or Oliphaunts simply evolved into elephants -- the Hobbits apparently did, after all, from Men. The idea of Ungoliant simply being the first of her race is a good one, but I don't think it fits the Oliphaunts; they were an entire species, not just a single, first one.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Ok, Gwaihir, I see that it is rather difficult to change your mind [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

With respect to Dragons' spirit origin, I have found an interesting theory, from Michael Martinez. This quote is about the spirit of Glaurung (probably most of you already know it), in this article http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/55180:

An alternative explanation of these passages is a simpler one: the spirit referred to is literally the spirit of Morgoth. Not the primary will of Morgoth, his awareness or consciousness, if you will. But simply a part of his power, his strength.

The more I think about it, the more I like this explanation [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

In which case it would be similar to what I believe drives the apparent concioussness of the Ring -- Sauron's spirit through the bond between them, rather than the Ring having its own seperate intellect. It's certainly a good theory, mighty Ainur such as Morgoth and, to a lesser extent, Sauron presumably having such large intelligences that they can do this. Sauron's psionic abilities (which he uses over his Orcs) are undeniable, at any rate.

The problem is, when connecting it to Dragons, is that they really did appear to have their own separate minds. In the Hobbit, Smaug seems to think and reason by himself; furthermore, there is his self-centredness. His treasure-hoarding and self-praise/love of flattery are examples of a selfishness that I don't think would be apparent was he a mere exemplification of Morgoth's spirit. Glaurung too shows these traits to an extent -- self-praise to a lesser extent, but treasure-hoarding he also does (reputedly as does Scatha the dold-drake). Different personalities in the two dragons also manifest themselves here.

The signs seem to be that Dragons did have their own particular spirits, you know -- although theories like that one can have a place because we don't actually know anything about these spirits.

Ok, Gwaihir, I see that it is rather difficult to change your mind [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nah, I'm just argumentative [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. You've made me more uncertain about what Goldberry is, which I appreciate, but still I can't agree with your replacement explanation. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]