Cookie Cutter Characters--Bullies

[Iarwain]

Recent events have inspired me to begin a new series of threads based on the analysis of blanket characteristics in the good and the bad of Tolkien's writings. To begin the series, I would like to point out the remarkable similarities of several personalities in The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and Silmarillion. That is, the use of superior resorces (coercion) to intimidate others and force one's will upon them or their evironments.

The first of these examples that I will point out is Bill Ferny. Bill uses his resources both for personal gain, and to enjoy the suffering/loss of those besides himself. Both of these characteristics are displayed in Bill's sale of Bill the Pony to Frodo in Bree (Book I-11). He is also shown to be a bully even when his own personal gain is not involved, though he flees immediately at the sign of danger (Book VI-8).

My second example of bulliness is Morgoth himself. When, at the awakening of the firstborn, he immediately uses his forces of fear and uncertainty to snare and torture elves, he is bullying those who know little about the world, if anything at all. He uses his power to torment them and mock their forms, creating orcs as a product. Much of the distrubance and turmoil that he causes is in a way, bullying those whom he feels are a threat and dislikes for that reason. He was the ultimate bully.

Next was Ted Sandyman. Ted was a good debater with Sam in the Green Dragon. He kept up good conversations, but even when Sam wandered into the realm of abstract, Ted used the open door of reality to stab Sam in the back and make public fun of him. Sam had the mind to think of possibilites and outside places, other than the Shire. But Ted shut him down, perhaps merely because he could not comprehend anything other than working at the mill in Bywater. Even at the end of the book, when Ted's friends in high places are gone, he (thinking himself triumphant) mocks Sam and spits at him in rebuke.

Saruman also prooves himself a bully. His pride, by the time of the War of the Ring, has utterly consumed him, and he looks down upon even Gandalf, his close friend as merely a tool. Gandalf is a "lesser" character in the greater scheme, for it is up to Saruman to pursue that high and lonely destiny past all rules, to save and govern Middle-Earth from the unknowing, savage behavior of men, the lesser race. He is the king that orders his pawns around with a pursuasive tounge and a decietful heart. Saruman's brand of coercion is much more sophisticated, but he is a bully all the same.

I could continue by listing many different characters in Middle-Earth that are bullies, from Saeros to Sauron, and from Celegorm to Ungoliant, for there are many. What does everyone think of the appearance of bullies in Tolkien's writings?

Calm and Tired,
Iarwain.

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Iarwain]

What I mean to ask is what everyone thinks of the idea of character recurences in Tolkien's works. What do you think of the use/misuse of coercion on others and its results as shown in the books?

[doug*platypus]

Well, O Yellow-Booted one, it seems like I have a second chance to be the first reply on this thread. Perhaps many were baffled and belittled by your skilled grouping and analysis of several characters - I know I was. Bully.

My first reaction was to froth at the mouth, and splutter things like "No, no! Ferny, Morgoth, Saruman and Ted are not the same!" But when I thought about it, they are vastly similar. I think that differences arise when you examine the motives, that is why did they become such bullies? Out of all of them, I believe Sauron is the only one who has little or no motive for his wicked behaviour, his bullying and attempted coercion. He is aptly named Gorthaur the Cruel, and his character is very consistent throughout the ages. But of course, there are bullies exactly like this in real life. Those who make use of their superior position or skills for their own sadistic pleasure. This is I think more noticeable in children, before bullies inevitably learn that this kind of behaviour later in life carries repercussion.

Ted I do not credit with any large degree of bullying. I think that he needs to feel his own worth, to be appreciated. Of course his sense is warped, and as Farmer Cotton points out, his role under Sharkey is of much less power than he otherwise would have had (but he is too foolish to see this). He also becomes corrupted by technology, and loves his machines.

The actions you see as being synonymous with bullying, that is:

the use of superior resorces (coercion) to intimidate others and force one's will upon them or their evironments.

can be applied to a lot of characters on the 'other side' as well. Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel - all these people use their resources to further their own ends. It's just that their ends are more noble. And also that none of them have slaves, or unwilling servants. Galadriel has loyal subjects, Elrond has contemporaries, and Aragorn and Gandalf do not really command anybody, instead using their personalities to appeal to others. I wonder if Saruman had slaves as Sauron did, or were all of his servants willing? Willing for all the wrong reasons, probably. So, I think that you might find the definition of bullying could be a very fine line. Gandalf is almost bullying Théoden - the chief difference being that in the end, it is for Théoden's own good.

[Iarwain]

I see this in Gandalf, but I don't believe the others qualify. Perhaps I forgot to include in my description the key phrase : "against their will". That is, bullies are using coercion to force others into places that they do not wish to be in. Therefore, organized leadership as in Celeborn and Galadriel's "kingship" over the silvan elves in Lothlorien, would not be bullying because there is no sign of displeasure in their leadership, as they were (I believe, though I may be wrong) chosen to lead, as opposed to establishing a dictatorship through an unpopular coup. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Saruman did have unwilling slaves, I'm sure, its just that he was trying to build an army, and he needed to stay on their "good sides".

Ted, you may argue, was just lacking some good self-esteem, but that does not change the way that he proved to use it in the end. He chose to use is ill-founded "high position" as grounds to improve his self-esteem even more at the expense of others.

You make a good point about motive, though. Here are some of my thoughts on the motives of the characters mentioned so far.

-Bill Ferny: he was a greedy sadist
-Morgoth: greed, once again, mixed with jealousy
-Ted Sandyman: low self-esteem
-Saruman: greed, pride, want for power
-Saeros: pride, desire to improve his standing through Turin's shame.
-Sauron: another sadist, want for power
-Celegorm: want for power, desire for Luthien, a small oath... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
-Ungoliant: gluttony
-Aragorn: urgency (in Gollum's case)
-Gandalf: desire to improve others' situations
-Elrond: superiority in wisdom???
-Galadriel: requested to rule???

I couldn't quite see how the last two fit in, perhaps an explaination is in order? Aragorn's has a pretty weak occurence also, as the bulliness is not coming from his character but from his need.


Iarwain

[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Iarwain]

Any thoughts on posing Gandalf, Aragorn and Co. as Bullies?

[Angry Hill Troll]

I agree that the "bad guys" in Tolkien's books tend to be copies of each other to some extent. But in Tolkien's defense, I would say that the same is true of such people in real life.

Think over the various dictators, organized crime figures, cult leaders, etc. over the last 100 years. They certainly represented (or at least claimed to) a wide variety of ideologies. But when you get down to it, they all are operating from the same script.

1. Try to persuade people to join/follow you if possible.
2. Coerce them to follow you, if persuasion fail.
3. If you can't coerce or persuade them, try and get rid of them, or at least cause them as much harm and misery as possible.

The other point is extreme selfishness. It's always about looking out for number one. They will work for someone else's benefit...as long and only as long as it coincides with their own.

Tolkien did conceive of a number of wonderful "bad" or semi-bad characters who were very interesting and individual. Feanor, Maedros, and Gollum are my personal favorites. In my view, the common element is that they all spend a great deal of their lives in an internal struggle with their own worst tendencies. Struggles which they ultimately lost, but at least ended up as much more interesting and sympathetic than those characters such as Morgoth and Sauron who just acted out their worst tendencies without any obvious attempt at self-control.

[doug*platypus]

I'm glad that this thread has been started, Iarwain, because it is making me think about and appreciate the many different characters that Tolkien created for the side of evil, and also the many varying positions they occupy. Although to a cursory reader of the book, heroes and villains are easily identified and labelled, when you think about the entire works of Tolkien we really have a sliding scale of nastiness. Your list, Iarwain, encompasses many different personality types, and people of several different motives trying to achieve several very different aims.

When I think of the word bully, I think of someone who is using their advantage in physical size to achieve domination over someone else, whether this be physical, verbal or emotional. You have expanded this definition of physical size, to include in fact any resource at the bully's disposal, whether this be magic, brute strength, or the command of an army.

I would personally remove Saeros and Celegorm from this list. If you would not, perhaps you can illustrate exactly how these two used bullying as a tactic. Ted Sandyman also walks a fine line in my opinion. Does he really achieve, or even seek, the domination of others? He seems to derive pleasure from the misery of others, like the blacksmith in Farmer Giles of Ham. He may be a sadist, but I'm not convinced he is a bully.

Aragorn as you point out, uses his superior physical abilities to bully Gollum, holding him captive against his will. I think this is the only instance where Aragorn bullies, though. Gandalf always seems to be reasoning with people rather than daunting them as Saruman would, but remember he is supposedly using the power of Narya, given to him by Círdan to kindle the spirits of others. Not quite the same as an old Jedi mind trick, but possibly not too far off. Galadriel, more obviously than any other character uses her power to daunt others. Her case is different however, as her objective is to search the minds of her 'victims', but not to dominate them.

[Iarwain]

Well, just to say, I'm not trying to criticize Tolkien in any way.

I agree that Feanor, Meadros, and Gollum are great characters. Gollum is my most favorite because of the emotions he inspires in me.

Thank you for the compliment, doug [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , I like the idea also. The way we can group characters from all across the scale and point out a characteristic and say "they all have this". Saeros and Celegorm display very bullyish qualities. I will explain. Saeros is a snob, and uses his social standing to publicly mock Turin in front of many people. This, I believe fits the more basic idea of bullying that you provided. Celegorm's bullying is much more obvious though. He wanted rule of Nargothrond with Curufin. He even scared the people so much that they would never go out openly again. He took advantage of the fact that Finrod had just left, and tried to bully Odereth out of his rule.

Ted was perhaps, a bit of a stretch, but he does bully occaisonally. I don't at all see how Galadriel bullied others outside of her distorted clone in the movies. She doesn't force anything on anyone.

Iarwain

[Angry Hill Troll]

No offense taken Iarwain, I realize you´re not meaning to criticize Tolkien. I agree with doug*platypus, good topic you thought of!