Robbing the Cradle

[Andsigil]

We all know that Arwen was Aragorn's betrothed and that they settled down to a happy marriage following the events of the Ring trilogy.

Has anyone stopped to think that at the time of Aragorn's birth (d.o.b. TA 2931), Arwen was already 2690 years old (d.o.b. 241)? This goes way beyond anything we see between Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore, folks. Seriously, I'm 41, and (assuming I were single again) I'm pretty sure I could never have a serious relationship with, say, a 20 year old. The conversation, alone, would drive me batty. Heck, most casual conversations just with the friends of my 16 year old daughter drive me batty after about 30 seconds.

So after living almost 2700 years, wouldn't someone like Arwen view any mortal as childlike (at best) in their accumulated knowledge, wisdom, and outlook on life? Or are we to believe that Aragorn was just that exceptional?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

So after living almost 2700 years, wouldn't someone like Arwen view any mortal as childlike (at best) in their accumulated knowledge, wisdom, and outlook on life? Or are we to believe that Aragorn was just that exceptional?

One might think Arwen would harbour some contempt for Men as mortal and overall weaker, as did many of the Elves apparently.
However, Aragorn wasn't just a homeless wanderer (*cough* Beren *cough*). He was the Heir of Isildur, the potential King of both Arnor and Gondor. Moreover, she would have known of their kinship. Aragorn was at many removes her cousin, so he wouldn't have appeared as 'baseborn' and 'lowly' to her as, say, Barliman Butterbur.
In the end though, it was simply 'meant' for the two to fall in love, I think. Like Lúthien and Idril before her, Arwen disregarded the brevity of mortal life and let love guide her.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One might think Arwen would harbour some contempt for Men as mortal and overall weaker, as did many of the Elves apparently.
However, Aragorn wasn't just a homeless wanderer (*cough* Beren *cough*). He was the Heir of Isildur, the potential King of both Arnor and Gondor. Moreover, she would have known of their kinship. Aragorn was at many removes her cousin, so he wouldn't have appeared as 'baseborn' and 'lowly' to her as, say, Barliman Butterbur.
In the end though, it was simply 'meant' for the two to fall in love, I think. Like Lúthien and Idril before her, Arwen disregarded the brevity of mortal life and let love guide her.

I wasn't thinking so much of the racial man/elf thing. It's more a question of maturity, and when someone has lived almost 3 millenia, I would think the "been there, done that" mindset would make even the wisest 70 year old human seem almost giddy and childlike.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I wasn't thinking so much of the racial man/elf thing. It's more a question of maturity, and when someone has lived almost 3 millenia, I would think the "been there, done that" mindset would make even the wisest 70 year old human seem almost giddy and childlike.

Well, when considering the question, the racial aspect is bound with it, as that's the reason for the diparity in life potential. Arwen's father initially considered the match unsuitable.

But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in this world already so long that to her you are but a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her.

Appendix A

However, as far as mental maturity goes, Aragorn was probably her equal. She was really fairly coddled for most of her life, it seems, and I wonder if she honestly knew a great deal about the world in general that didn't concern the Elves. She certainly would have learned much in the way of history and lore from Elrond, but Aragron would have had the edge when it came to practical experience. Perhaps that was a factor in making him seem older than he was.

x/d with Lalwendë, who had a similar thought.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

The conversation, alone, would drive me batty. Heck, most casual conversations just with the friends of my 16 year old daughter drive me batty after about 30 seconds.

Still you manage to have more or less decent discussions here in the 'downs with many people from ages 16-20+...

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Still you manage to have more or less decent discussions here in the 'downs with many people from ages 16-20+...

True. But it's much more controlled here.

[Nogrod]

More seriously though...

Think of a 12 year old dating with a 6 year old (six years difference)... A problem indeed.

Think of a 20 year old dating with a 14 year old (the same six years)... Well a problem still.

Think of a 36 year old dating with a 30 year old (six years again)... Now where has the problem gone?

And it is not uncommon that people date with others twenty years younger / older than themselves - after both parties have reached a certain adulthood. And those relations can be satisfying to them both.

Now the question that is begging itself is that will thousands of years of a life-span make a difference in comparison to a few hundred years? With us humans the differences start to vanish quite soon as we become "adults" but then again the common upper limit is only around 80.

I'd say the perspective of someone living for a few thousand years could change the "maturity" of a person enough to make a relationship with someone who only lives a few hundred years possibly problematic, but I think it's not an easy question.

[Lalwendë]

However, Arwen led quite a sheltered life, and you could say that Aragorn would have brought a lot of worldly experience with him to the relationship. Yes, Arwen would likely have been better read (or the like) given that she had all that time to fill with something meaningful, but Aragorn was the one who had been out in the 'real world', fighting, meeting all manner of people and dealing with difficult situations.

[Morwen]

20 year old Aragorn certainly fell in love with Arwen at their first meeting in Rivendell. However, I was under the impression that the Aragorn that Arwen fell in love with is an older version of Aragorn that showed up in Lorien after undertaking a great deal of travel throughout Middle Earth. This older version is clad by Arwen's grandmother so as to appear to best advantage and given his extensive travel his conversation must certainly have been intriguing to someone who, as Lalwende points out, led a somewhat sheltered life.

[Pitchwife]

Drawing on some autobiographical experience: I well remember the time when I was trained for my current profession and found myself, in my mid-thirties at the time, surrounded by and partially living together with people between eighteen and early twenties; and while some of them seemed to be stuck in a kindergarten stage (and are probably still stuck there), those I got involved with more closely struck me as mature and thoughtful adults, so I had no difficulty at all interacting with them on equal terms - indeed I still feel I owe them for accepting me as a peer in spite of the age difference, and I've learned a couple of things from them, never mind that some of them could conceivably have been my kids.
(I've been having a similar experience here on the Downs - yep, Nog, you're right to point it out! I've already mentioned that on another thread, but it's still true - I get surprised all the time when I click on the profile of someone who's just said something really clever and thoughtful and find out how young they are.)
Which goes to prove that maturity and experience can't always be measured in years - especially not between races of wildly different life-spans (phew, finally got round to topic!). Even if Elves grew and matured more like Men in their childhood and early youth and only slowed down later on (if we're to believe Laws and Customs), I can see Arwen accepting Aragorn as her equal and falling in love with him without any Elvish Lolito-complex being involved. Let's not forget that he was 49 when they plighted their troth on Cerin Amroth, and, as Morwen has pointed out, he'd by that time already undertaken his great journeys as Thorongil and been to the 'far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange' - probably seeing more of Middle-earth than Arwen in her entire life; so I agree with Lal and Zil that he probably had the edge on her as far as worldly experience was concerned, and this very fact may have made him attractive for her, if she'd truly spent most of her life in Rivendell with her over-protective dad.
(Indeed, now I think of it, didn't Arwen do anything in all those endless centuries before she met Aragorn? Surely there must have been more to her life than being taught Elven lore and singing hymns to Elbereth? Lots of space for fan fiction there...)

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Morwen

20 year old Aragorn certainly fell in love with Arwen at their first meeting in Rivendell. However, I was under the impression that the Aragorn that Arwen fell in love with is an older version of Aragorn that showed up in Lorien after undertaking a great deal of travel throughout Middle Earth. This older version is clad by Arwen's grandmother so as to appear to best advantage and given his extensive travel his conversation must certainly have been intriguing to someone who, as Lalwende points out, led a somewhat sheltered life.

I think this is an important point. Their relationship is sealed when Aragorn returns from the travels that made him "the greatest traveller of his age", at age 50 as I recall. This is no longer the "young punk" that she encountered in Rivendell. While still much younger than Arwen, he has 1) experienced hardships and difficulties beyond what many Elves would face in the course of their lives in Middle Earth, and 2) true to the Dunadan/Numenorean spirit, he has managed to absorb the wisdom of that race of men that began with Earendil. This ability of the Numenorean race/strain to absorb the wisdom of the forbearers is noted elsewhere, even in the case of Faramir, who is admittedly less high and lofty than is Aragorn. So while Aragorn is mortal and therefore less longlived than the Elves, I don't think this is a basis in and of itself to devalue him (or other men). After all, Elrond and Elros are twin brothers, but I doubt either would have said that Elros was the lesser person. He chose mortality, with all that comes with it, but as a result he was able to influence the world of men more directly than Elrond was (like Aragorn was in the Third Age)...