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07-09-2009, 11:30 PM | #1 |
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Orcs creation theory
This may have already been covered, but i was thinking, since Yavanna sung about ents and they were made by Eru, and Manwe sung about eagles and were produced, maybe Morgoth sung about Orcs in the Music of the Ainur, and though it may sound bad Eru created them because as he proclaimed during the music
"Eru then publicly rebuked Melkor, saying that all music found its source in himself, and thus Melkor could not create his own song or truly alter the Themes of Ilúvatar. Thus, though Melkor opposed Eru to his last breath, he only furthered the cause of Ilúvatar in new and wondrous ways" Thoughts? ~~~ |
07-10-2009, 04:06 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In 1954 Tolkien drafted a letter to Peter Hastings about orcs, and wrote the following..........'I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, and not making them'. In later writings he says...'Only Eru, Iluvatar, 'could make creatures of independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both.' Therfore, could they be 'corruptions of something pre-existing'?. Not of Men: 'Men had not appeared when Orcs already existed.......Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor [Morgoth] so as to allow the independence of the Orcs [if Melkor had created them]. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and "saved"?) He could not cotemplate the 'absolute perversion' by Melkor 'of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable [capable of being transmitted from parent to offspring].' Thus Elves are' very unlikely' as the source for Orcs. In 1969 tolkien wrote discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intented to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'. More about Orcs can be read in Morgoth's Ring. The main problem is that Tolkien changed his mind over the years and the only clear words we have are Treebeard's.
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07-10-2009, 07:09 AM | #3 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A mannish theory can be found in one of Tolkien's notes to the essay on the Druedain published in Unfinished Tales, where (it is stated that) the Eldar said that surely Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but yet not the Druedain. |
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07-10-2009, 07:29 AM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher states:- This then, as it may appear, was my father final view of the question: Orcs were bred from men. Confused? .
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07-10-2009, 07:37 AM | #5 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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In The Silmarillion the Elves of Tol Eressea believed Morgoth captured Elves, tortured them, and thus you have the first Orcs. However, the same problems occur as you have with Treebeard. Plus, later on, as narfforc and Galin pointed out Tolkien began moving away from this... While we know Elves and Dwarves were capable of evil, Tolkien didn't think it was possible to enslave their wills in the way Morgoth and Sauron were able to do with their Orcs. Morgoth and Sauron held their Orcs in 'ant-like' thraldom, the nature of Elves and Dwarves made it impossible for them to ever reach this slave state: Quote:
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07-10-2009, 08:52 AM | #6 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Whether or not one thinks these two notes are enough to cast doubt on Text X the note to the Druedain is dated quite late too -- but not precisely dated, as CJRT includes it with his description of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, about which he writes: Quote:
As far as the other note and the essential conception of Text X that the note seems to deny (as I read the evidence anyway): the note implies Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs before his captivity -- while in Text X the implication is rather that, though breeding had actually begun, when Melkor was made captive Sauron bred large numbers, so that when his master returned: Quote:
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07-10-2009, 12:14 PM | #7 |
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now we all know Morgoth cannot made beings himself. Also he has never, too his utmost hatred, been able to wield the flame imperishable, so creating a people all his own is impossible.
Because Eru has to set the Flame in each being, and Mogoth could have corrupted the first Elf or Man, but the next generation the mutant offspring would still need a new Fëa (spirit) and with out Eru's consent the offspring would only be an empty husk with no soul. But if, in the music of Ainur Morgoth sang of his vision of a people he could command that would bend to his will, then Eru would create them and set them on Arda, and would continue to gift these bodies (orcs) with Fëar. Just as the Ent, Eagles, and a little differnt from the dwarves |
07-10-2009, 02:48 PM | #8 | |
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When considering the role of the Great Music and the origin of Orcs, it is important to remember that Eru alone sang the Children into existence. The Silmarillion says:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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07-10-2009, 03:22 PM | #9 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Although, I must admit this letter makes an entirely different mess of things with Orcs, because Tolkien never sent it, and added to the top 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'
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07-10-2009, 09:46 PM | #10 | |||
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Yes Estelyn Telcontar, it does say:
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I am in no way saying that Morgoth created Orcs on his own, i just think that he thought them up, like Yavanna, and then Eru brought them to life, but Morgoth being the arrogant punk he is just thought he had done it himself. And Eru made orcs not to be cruel but for the reason Boromir88 states: Quote:
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07-10-2009, 10:21 PM | #11 | ||
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The Ents were indeed part of the Music as recounted by Yavanna. But she received permission, as did Aulë for a different reason, to bring her own idea into the theme. Melkor received no such grace, and was in fact rebuked by the One for his insubordination. His alteration of the Music had no good intentions to redeem it. An evil deed, though it may do good not intended by the perpetrator, remains evil.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 07-10-2009 at 10:35 PM. |
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07-11-2009, 02:11 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later Men).................... The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs - in character and origin - but they were larger and slower. It would seem they were corruptions of primitive human types. (Morgoth's Ring).
In a letter dated September 1954, tolkien wrote the following:- I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits' and hence (though here I am of course only using elements old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course.....when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. (Morgoth's Ring). I don't think we came seperate the Orcs and the Trolls when we discuss The Origins of Species, they were either both created or pre-existing corrupted forms. As Boromir88 says though, Tolkien kept changing his mind. If you take The Early Silmarillion view then 'Melkor made the orcs out of stone with hearts of hatred'. Later in The Earliest Annals of Beleriand 'He devised the (Balrogs and) Orcs'. These are the problems you encounter within HoME, and at the end Tolkien was comfortable enough to have the words of Treebeard published, even then he still kept thinking of the problem.
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07-11-2009, 09:09 PM | #13 |
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Ok, i agree, Morgoth probably did not create Orcs but corrupted them into themselves.
But I'm still wondering: Is Fëa (soul) passed down from parents to children, or does Eru have to give each being its own Fëa. If the case is the latter, then the first corrupted product (orc) would have a spirit but the next generation, its child, would not have one. It would be an empty body, unless Eru chose to give each new orc a soul, and my question's are: Why would he do that? Do they or will they serve some purpose for Eru? |
07-11-2009, 10:51 PM | #14 | ||
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I would think souls must be assigned to each being individually, or would not each new Orc essentially be a reincarnation of an earlier generation? As to why The One would ensoul such creatures, my only answer is that the Orcs must play some important part in the story of the world, or they would not be allowed to exist. The question of whether that part was devised for them from the very beginning, before even Melkor conceived of making a race of his own to serve him, or if it was a response to Melkor's act is really beyond my pay grade. My feeling is that if one accepts the premise of Ilúvatar being the Prime Creator and ultimate author of the Play, it must follow that nothing occurrs that is unforseen to him, and every event has a purpose.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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07-13-2009, 09:40 AM | #15 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Thingol and Melian begat what?
Assume then a Maiar that joined Melkor from the beginning. Mate this being with any other being (elf, dwarf, ent, man, animal, etc) and see what happens. If Melian could take a form that was compatible with Thingol, biologically-speaking, then why couldn't a Maia bent on some hellish plan take a form to allow for the begetting of some new hybrid species? This explanation would also account for balance in the realm of Arda (Ents - trolls, elves - orcs, eagles - winged beasts, Bombadil - ...).
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08-16-2009, 08:15 AM | #16 | |
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An elf.
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08-18-2009, 10:08 AM | #17 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Was she 'just' an elf? Somehow Lúthien's genes are a little different from the rest of the First or Second born.
But let's work with that. Melian wasn't an elf, but obviously made herself appear - physically, mechanically - enough like an elf to beget a child. Take some other maia that's not so nice. Have this evil being take a form enough like an elf to create offspring, but not like an elf in appearance due to its more evil nature. What could we get from that union? Quote:
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08-18-2009, 01:20 PM | #18 | |
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So yes ... it is all part of his Grand Design ... all foreseen by Him. |
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