technology in ME

[FingolfintheBold]

I searched the threads and didn't find anything to close along these lines, so here goes: Why is the technological development in the LotR so slow? Not that I dont like it better the way it is, I would MUCH rather have it the way it is written, as Im sure you all do. but in all the abounding time the elves were alone, then in Valinor, then back in ME, then in Beleriand, in all the time that Numenor was at it's height, there seems to be very little technological development un the area of weapons.

Sure in architechture and crafting and such things there were breakthroughs and wonderful new ideas, but in all those years not even a crossbow is mentioned that I have read of (i guess i could have overlooked something...).

I would think that with all that skill and need of weapons there could have been some sort of gunpowder projectiles or at least advanced arbalasts. Yet in all those ages the same primary medieval weapons were employed, until Sarumans "Fire" that was likely of a bomb nature but could have been some sort of sorcery.

It took mankind, by a Biblical estimation, from 5,500 to 9,000 years ( rough estimation) to develope gunpewder projectiles, and there were rockets and bombs in use before that. The Elves had a WHOLE lot longer than that to come up with something, but apparentley they didnt.

Im I missing some vital info in one of the HoME, or what?

[Aragost]

I have also noticed that the technological advances in Middle Earth have been much slower than ours today. It might have been because of frequent conflict. They might have just gotten lazy and used magical shortcuts to instead of reasearching and doing scientific experiments.

They might not have thought of gunpowder because gunpowder was originally used for fireworks. And maybe not arbalests because of the elven sucsess with a bow.

To me they always seemed fine in arcetucture with all of the towers they built. The hobbits would most definetally not get better technology because they preferred to have life simple.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Elves prefered things the way they were and Men seemed content with slower advance. I think it is the Numenoreans who actually did use steel crossbows.
It was when the Dominion of Men began that technology began to develope because Elves and magic faded.

-Aredhel

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

LoTR happens only during some decades, and the journey of the Company lasts only one year. Which technological development do you expect to happen during such a short period of time? [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

In my opinion, the real question is the opposite: Why is the technological development in Middle-Earth so fast? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
In only a few thousands of years from their awakening, elves and men have reached the technological level of european medieval societies. Reaching this level, in Europe, has been a process that has required more than 50,000 years [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[ July 12, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Olorin]

Hmm, I'm thinking that the elves had no need for such weapons, becuase they weren't a primarilly millitary race.

Also, just for a more realistic note, we have to remember that it is fantasy and therefore, we must "suspend our disbelief" (as my English teacher says).

[FingolfintheBold]

Amarie, i meant LotR as in the whole history of ME, not just the time of the Fellowship's journey. Sorry about that...

And as far as the elves not being a militaristic society, for the long years alone and then in Valinor this is true, but after Sauron taught them the forging of swords and they returned to ME there was very little time bettween wars. I would say they turned quite militaristic...

The Numenorians used great steel bows that were greatly feared for their range and power, but it doesnt say anything about crossbows.

[peony_foxburr]

*Ahem*--Why is technological advance associated with weaponry?

I contend that Tolkien had rather the opposite point of view:
-----------------------------------------------
"Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners or slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far."
--Tolkien, speaking of goblins in "The Hobbit"
-------------------------------------
There isn't much said about the comforts of everyday life such as central heat, plumbing, lighting, and fuel other than wood, and I wonder about those technologies. Elrond and Galadriel both wielded Rings of Power, which perhaps included climate control for Imladris and Lothlorien. The Elves had powers of telepathy, which would render devices of communication superfluous. But raising food and producing clothing, furniture, and other goods by hand is laborious, in some cases back-breakingly so. (And let's not even talk about ordinary housework.) Did they use magic? or were they just so strong, as well as immortal, that it didn't matter?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Thanks, FingolfintheBold, I wasn't sure whether your question referred only to LotR or to all Middle-Earth history [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Cúdae]

Ah, yet another question that we have been asking ourselves for years! Right up there with "Do Balrogs have wings?" and "Why does Cirdan have a beard?"

Anyway, back on topic, I feel that we need to take things in perspective, so to speak. How long did it take man to figure out the wheel? How long for the internet? To people today, technological advances are common. You hear about a faster internet whatsit and think "Oh, cool. What's for dinner?" You hear about a bigger and better military weapon and might think, "Okay." To us, technological advances are usual. For a long time, they weren't.

I don't know where I'm going with this musing. Perhaps someone else could continue my thoughts? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[FingolfintheBold]

Maybe the elves were truley ontop of their game, at the highest they could (or wanted to) go. In medieval times people probably said "this is as good as it gets, there is nothing higher than were we are." But, Lo, empires fall, new nations arise and here we are today. We might think were at the top, but who knows how different things will be in the future. Maybe the elves were simply as high as they could go on their own, at least in ME. i cant see elves ever building great steel and glass cities like we've constructed...

Also, how long were the elves in ME from say, their rebellion against the valar to the reshaping of the world after the war of wrath? There probably isnt anything definate written, but maybe someone has read some letter I havent.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

I think that the elves didn't have all the technological advances one might have expected them to have because, don't anyone shoot me, it wouldn't have worked in the book. I mean, can you really see Elrong driving all over Imladris? And all the machines we have today don't really speed things up. It still takes as long to clean the house as it used to.

From a ME stand-point, I think the Elves wouldn't advance too far because they: (1) resisted change, (2) loved nature and wouldn't want to mess it up, and (3) they didn't need it. They didn't need to have central heating etc, because in Lothlorien, for example, they lived on flets with one wall. Central heating would be rather useless in that circumstance. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The men actually have fairly good technology for their time frame. Only a few thousand years and they had built amazing cities like Minas Tirith (even though it had declined by the time of LotR itself). Their medical advancement seems to me to be better than ours, because they live quite a bit longer than do we (at least, the Numenoreans do).

The hobbits, well, that one is just that the Shire wouldn't be the same without the simplicity. I mean, can you imagine?

Frodo: I'll be right there, Bilbo, I'm checking my e-mail!
Bilbo: Well, don't turn off the computer, I need it!

The hobbits are dear in their simplicity and innocence. They just wouldn't be hobbits if they had the sort of technology we have today.

I hope that makes sense, I'm rather tired at the moment.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The answer to this is the Eldar (in fact, Fingolfin, there is another thread that talks about this somewhere, but it's good to get another, and probably better one).
Yes, the Elves; they did not really develop their technology, nor would they have wanted to. That is not to say that they are Neanderthal-like (far from it, obviously) but that it was simply against their nature to develop their technology. This for more than one reason, I think.

Firstly and foremost, it is against their nature to wish for change when what they already have is sufficient. Their 'basic' technology they would have found fine. Time-saving things they didn't want, as they dwelled in time and loved it, not to mention that they had an infinite amount of it on their hands, far from wishing to hasten it, I think. Since Elvish civilisations are chiefly made up of the same Elves over a long period of time, rather than the generation pattern of Men, technology advances would probably not have been seen to be required right now -- there was plenty of time. This is a kind of 'time-bubble' mentality. I haven't said that quite right, but you may understand me.
Second, there is the probability that such things as machines, guns or computers would seem abhorrent to an Elda. The Eldar are the closest to the Earth of the two Kindreds; the technology they had -- which they made beautiful, and had high civilisations that did not require machines -- was part of this. Machines are alien to Earth, and are wholly unnatural except that they have come from the human mind. They distance us from the Earth and the laws that it follows, which the Eldar feel they are wholly part of. Again, I am not sure that I have said this in entirely the right way, but again, you can probably get the jist. As an example, if you have any knowledge of the people I am talking about, the 'Aborigine' natives of Australia -- now almost totally displaced by the modern, white settlers of the country -- provide an interesting paralell. Their technology, at the time of British settlement, was far less than that of the Eldar; it was stone age. They had been living like that for, it is thought, perhaps even over forty thousand years almost devoid of change. The reason they were so easily displaced by settlers is because of a massive culture clash. The settlers, of course, Westerners, had the idea of 'land ownership' that we do; it is owned, i.e. 'this is my land.' Which is what the settlers said to the Aborigines, normally along with 'get off it'. The problem was that the Aborigine idea is completely different. The land was not to be owned -- rather, it owned them, and they were part of it, in the same way as were the rocks, the plants and the birds. It is interesting, but when you think about it that is really the natural state of Man, a state that our advancement has distanced us from. Perhaps it is the other way around. If you can bring this concept around back to what I was saying about the Eldar, it shows a lot (it isn't quite the same, but shares a similar principle).
Thirdly, of course, there is the fact that machines and machine-driven civilisation takes over the landscape almost totally, so that it is no longer Earth but a false environment of Man's creation. An Elf would certainly not wish for this type of civilisation.

Up until the Fourth Age, societies were predominantly either Elvish, or closely tied to the Elvish model. The First Age, of course, was dominated by the Elves; the Second Age by Elves and by Numenor, which was an Eldarin-type society; and the Third Age, which was still largely moved by Elves and Elvish-imbued Numenoreans or other Men, that shared the Elvish model of civilisation. The Haradrim, of course, were just barbaric. They had not developed either, but they were, I think, a newer society as well. Either way, it was not until the Fourth Age that we Men came into our own, and started on the drive towards technological greatness. Lamentable in a way, perhaps, but I think that's the way of things.
_________________

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

feel that we need to take things in perspective, so to speak. How long did it take man to figure out the wheel?

Cúdae, that is exactly what I meant [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elves used the wheel, were skilled smiths and knew iron, had discovered writing, .. and all this technological advances have taken place in less than 5,000 years ! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

Elves and men in Middle-Earth are neither in the stone age, nor in the Iron age. Their civilisation is similar to historic ones, in which handwriting was already discovered. And, if the awakening of men is to be placed about 150,000 ago, when the Homo Sapiens appears, that means that it has taken us about 140,000 years to reach the technological level of the Middle-Earth societies ! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
Compare 140,000 to 5,000 ! Isn't it amazing that Middle-Earth is so advanced? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Osse]

Great post Gwaihir! Me being Australian, i appreciate someone making the effort to think outside of the square and include such a usually-never-seen parallel. Remember that our knowledge affects our being; if the elves knew that there were ways of increasing their technologies further perhaps they would of...but perhaps in ME there weren't such ways of technological advancement. They elvish psyche is so different from ours that thoughts about such advances (many of which would have seemed crude) weren't even comtemplated.

[Demloth of Dol Amroth]

also remember that the race of men was widely scattered and disorganized over the face of ME, and significant technological advancement requires a great number of people all working in sync. what was on the minds of men before the fall of Sauron was staying alive, rather than making life comfortable or convenient.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Thanks again, Osse. =]

Hmmm, Demloth, what you say about Sauron is true; but then think of societies like that of Numenor that wasn't concerned about 'surviving' in particular as they were not under threat. However, what they were was heavily influenced by the Eldar. I think that the incredible technology that Men have developed come from the nature of humans -- not least the nature to desire control and acquire things. Found in the Elves to an extent as well, but in Men it was rather differently manifest.

As Osse says, the 'psyche' of Elves was very different from our own.

[Maeglanthirion]

As for crossbows, didn't the Uruk-hai use crossbows? I mean, in Europe, someone tried to get them banned for being inhumane because it required little skill to use and was very powerful. Sounds like something the Uruk-hai would use to me. They took a long time to load and fire, but I doubt it mattered to them.

[william]

The wars that were fought in all of ME are based on one things heroics. Battles were won or lost around a few key leaders and people who put themsleves foward. Even the evil forces of Morodor did this as is shown when the Lord of the Nazgul comes to the gates to face Gandalf. In reality a genral would never go near the fighting unless the fighting came to him (in other words hes getting his butt kicked). In this type of warfare technology was an afterthought and most likely frowned upon. The elves would have definetly not liked it for it brought change and that is an anthma for the elves. and in the beggining men learned most of what they knew from the elves. now of course that changed but the type of war didnt. so there was no need for the technilogical wepons of today. now as to technology of lifestlye i would say that for the most part either war was in the way or the people were to close to elves or remembered them to strongly to want to. when you are with a people you pick up a few of their ways and ideas. one of these that men probably picked up was the idea of not changing. until man was by himself and all other forces were ousted did he think of it. (man oh man is my spelling atrocious)

[Lobelia]

Are we now talking about technology in general or *only* military? For the Elves, they are, indeed, conservative, one of the things Tolkien himself criticised in his letters - Galadriel's Ring, for example, kept them in stasis, no changes. But if you have magic, do you need machines? However, they did have their own forms of technology. They didn't just whip out wands and make those fabulous weapons by uttering a spell. When Sam gets his wonderful rope in Lothlorien the elves say something along the lines of, gosh, if we'd known you were interested we would have taught you how to make it, pity there's no time. In other words, technology, not magic in this case. It can be taught. Maybe other things they do can be taught? Thranduil, at least, has peasants out there, as you may remember from that chapter in THE HOBBIT, with the "raft elves", so someone is doing the "backbreaking work" and they are elves, not humans.

In THE HOBBIT, the civilization is 19th century, in the Shire at least, which is why I wouldn't mind living there if I was living in ME. : - ) .Have another look - you'll find matches and post offices and other things they just didn't have in the Middle Ages.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The Shire did not have 19th century technology; they were not industrialised, and did not have guns. They simply had certain offices, buildings and services -- the post, for instance, as you say -- that are akin to a more modern British society. Society though, not technology. Their actual technology was the same as in the rest of ME.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

We see several examples of 'far reaching' military technology, in M-E , and it seems that it is the 'evil' races who tend to come up with the technological advances;

It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far."

Over Hill and Under Hill; The Hobbit

So 'Goblins' are credited here, with creating weapons that killed many people, but you must remember that The Hobbitwas a childrensstory and therfore Tolkien would want to provide a moral message about the evil nature of such weapons by associating them with the villianous race of his tale.

But we also find in the Fall of Gondolin(BoLT 2)that Melkor, after finding about the location and defences of Gondolin built several mechanical monsters, we also hear of flying devices in the Lost Road (HoME 5) when the Numenoreans *attempted* to build flying devices, when they were tryign to find the 'straight way'

And it is said that even those who of the Numenoreans of old who had the straight vision did not all comprehend this, and they tried to devise ships that would rise above the waters of the world

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs

Letter #131; Letters of Tolkien

Here we see that culture wise, the Dunedain of Gondor was similar to the Egyptian culture.

But I think that Tolkien intended for the 'Elven' culture to be more 'pure', for example in the Dangweth Pengolodwe learn;

The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades; and they gathered its great golden ears, each one, by hand, and set no blade of metal to it

This is about the growing of lembas, doesn't the statement that they 'set no blade of metal to it' imply that the Elvish culture did not wishto advance so far?

[Burzdol]

This might not be technically "on the same lines" as this thread, but does anyone really want new technology on ME.

Burzdol

[Cathelm]

If you read the long letter at the front of the Silmarillion (might be only in second addition), it says that the elves were dedicated not to creation, but sub-creation, meaning they only did things that were harmonious with the creations of the Valar already placed in Ea. Cars, computers, guns, all those things we are considering modern would not and do not exist peacefully with nature.

[Meneltarmacil]

The matter of elven technology seems to be settled pretty much, but what about Men? They certainly wouldn't have the same beliefs as the elves, and Gondor has had 3000 years to develop new technology. That's almost 1000 years more than we have had since the ancient Roman Empire. Why are they still in the Middle Ages?

[Melichus]

In this day and age, we humans like to think of an advanced society as one that is on the technological cutting edge, not necessarily as one with a deep history and culture or a good way of life. It's sad, really; we have come to define and judge a society solely upon the state of its technological advancements, without paying attention to what matters more in the grand scheme of things. We dismiss American Indians, Aborigines, African Bushmen and just about every other indigenous race as 'quaint' or 'primitive' simply because they are not surrounded by gadgets and gizmos and because they have lived much the same way for hundreds or thousands of years. We don't stop to think that maybe they are set in their 'primitive' and 'uncivilized' ways for a reason--that they are, perhaps, content with their ways of life. I think it is much the same with the elves of Middle Earth: they developed extraordinarily as far as culture goes (i.e. writing, literature, song, architecture, etc.) but were content to live as their ancestors had, without the aid of technology. Gwaihir spoke well when he made the distinction between advanced society and advanced technology in the Shire. Same goes for the elves, I think.


Meneltarmacil asks:
-----
...what about Men? They certainly wouldn't have the same beliefs as the elves, and Gondor has had 3000 years to develop new technology. That's almost 1000 years more than we have had since the ancient Roman Empire. Why are they still in the Middle Ages?
-----

In my opinion, the fact that the men of Middle Earth are of the same species as the people of this earth don't make the two societies equivalent--not by a long shot. There are a myriad of distinctions between the two societies, divergences between them that make it impossible to compare them with each other. Perhaps the humans of ME did have the same philosophy as the elves when it came to technological advancements, which is why their society would be considered Medieval in our world.

I'm hardly a Middle Earth expert, so I might be mistaken in some of my hypotheses/assumptions about elves and ME men, but I'd like to see what other folks have to say... so go 'head and rant at/correct me, if I haven't already lulled you to sleep by this point... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Thanks, Melichus, and I agree with you in part. The first half of your post I however feel to be slightly off the mark...

In this day and age, we humans like to think of an advanced society as one that is on the technological cutting edge, not necessarily as one with a deep history and culture or a good way of life.(etc)

An 'advanced' society is judged on two things, technology and social structure (i.e. how well-run the system is). I do not consider the society of, for example, the Incas (apart from their habit of human-sacrificing, of course [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] or of African hunter-gatherers to be less dignified or less noble that ours, as you seem to be saying that people do.

However, it is true that such societies are nowhere near as advanced as ours. Think of what you are doing now; think of what the Western world is doing and has done over the past millenium. We passed the hunter-gatherer stage, the tribal stage, long ago -- and more recently the medieval stage, a form of which Middle-Earth apparently exists in.

No-one, to my knowledge, has said anything that insults or looks down upon medieval/ME society. The statement that it is technologically significantly less advanced than ours is, however, entirely correct.

----

In response to this;

But I think that Tolkien intended for the 'Elven' culture to be more 'pure'...

Which speaks for some of things you were saying, Melichus. My response to it is this quote, not from a Tolkien source, but an apt one; it explains very well the difference between the bounds that Elvish and early Mannish technology was happy with, and the difference of our own.

It is not like bows or spears; they just store up your own power, really. But a gun gives you power from somewhere else.

Our technology distances us, as has been said, significantly from the normal rythym and essence of naturality. A medieval or Elvish society is still very much in connection with this.

[ August 25, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Arothir]

Well, in the Lost Road, Sauron is helping Numenoreans to devise submarines or mighty war machines or something like that. But that was a pretty early work that Tolkien probably rejected.

[Arvedui24]

Hey, i have also wondered this too but i make the point that the Elves cannot be held accountable for the lack of technological advancement, they were immortal and time as they knew it is irrelevant. I always thought of elves as more concerned with wisdom, lore and the workings of nature rather than advancing their technology. After all an Elf with a longbow would do a hell of more damage than an Orc with say a composite longbow or a crossbow...i think they preferred to master and specialise to perfection.

Hope this all makes sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Arvedui24 ]

[SamwiseGamgee]

I agree with an earlier observation that it seems to be the evil powers in ME who have developed further technology- the 'bomb' of Saruman, the crossbows of the orcs and the mass forging of swords in contrast to the very individual approach taken to swords, bows and axes etc by men, elves and dwarves. I think it's a fairly well known fact that Tolkien himself despised the whole industrialisation process (it's in Letters somewhere and also is fairly apparent from the way Tolkien writes when the hobbits return to the Shire and everything has changed), and thus in his own mind when writing surely it would have been in his mind to keep the forces of good away from such widespread industrial revolutions.