Boromir and his search for Rivendell

[The Mouth of Sauron]

In the books (though not the extended versions of the films) we are told that Boromir was unsure as to the location of Rivendell and took many months finding it.

Surely however this lack of knowledge would have been unlikely. Rivendell was used as a staging post by Numenorians during the first overthrow of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Isildur's youngest son stayed there at that time so it seems inconceivable that Rivendell was not known of in Gondor.

Further, the location of Rivendell was known by the Kings of Arnor and that information would it seems to me have certainly been shared with Gondor, then kept in Minas Tirith so that Boromir could have been given the exact location before he set off.

[Kuruharan]

That had been a long time before. Plenty of time to forget all sorts of things.

Probably that knowledge of the past, dimly remembered as it might have been, was the only thing that allowed Boromir to find Rivendell at all.

[CSteefel]

I had not heard that Rivendell was a staging ground. I do recall that Elendil watched for the arrival of Gilgalad from Weathertop, but that was a long way west.

In any case, we seem ample evidence that Gondor had lost track of most of what happened in the North Kingdom. Boromir did not know of the fate of Elendil's sword, or for that matter that his heirs still lived in that area. They also did not know that Isildur had kept the One Ring, and in fact much of what happened on the slopes of Mount Doom where only Isildur and Elendil on the one hand and Gilgalad and Elrond and Cirdan on the other were present, as Elrond clearly states in the Council of Elrond...

[Formendacil]

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?

Also I'm also pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Gondor kept a small garrison of "Soldiers and Engineers" at Tharbad up until about a hundred years before the War of the Ring.

Tharbad ain't all that far from Rivendell.

[Boromir88]

Aye, I am unsure if this info would have been available in Gondor Rivendell was in a valley and it was well hidden. Elrond established it as a refuge, and I don't think Sauron ever found it's location and I doubt many in Gondor (by this time) would have known.

Both Faramir and Boro went to Denethor about the dream they had to go to Imladris. Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location. Add to that Boro lost his horse in Tharbad, and you get a long journey.

Edit:

I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?~MoS

Not necessarily, joint maintenance of roads is not always pleasant let me tell you. If you ever wonder why County line roads in the U.S are some of the worst in shape, it's because the two counties always argue about who should do what - or some of the bridges over train tracks, I am always in arguments with train companies over who is responsible. And I don't want to go into the "communication" back-n-forth if you can even call it that.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

It is an interesting point of comparison here.

The Egyptians themselves had some very strange notions about their earliest history and (not to get into too much detail here, there is some of this in Herodotus if people are interested in following this up) even their memories and understanding of their recent past could at times be very muddled. And they were one of the people's of antiquity who were most concerned with their history.

I believe it is very difficult to truly understand the vastness of the times that Tolkien's world encompassed, I'm honestly not sure Tolkien himself dealt with it (or maybe rather conveyed it) effectively.

Boro you work in transportation planning too?

[radagastly]

From "The Council of Elrond:

"So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men."

Granted, Gandalf is referring to lore about the ring, but it implies that even lore-masters (like Denethor) have forgotten many things, including what little they knew of the location of Imladris. It was never well known:

From 'The Tale of Years,' appendix B, "The Return of the King":

1695-Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.

1697-Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.

1699-Sauron overruns Eriador.

1700-Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.

1701-Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

c. 1800-From about this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.

This shows that Rivendell existed only three years of the war before Sauron was defeated, and that Imladris was established as a "refuge," and Gondor/Arnor were only beginning to be established. Numenor was still at the height of it's power. Across the sea, I suspect maps of Middle-Earth (as much as WE all delight in them,) would have been scarce, if they existed at all. Certainly, none of them would have contained a detailed location of Imladris. It was, after all, a "refuge," in a world where Sauron not only still existed, but could still maintain a pleasing, charming form. It's location, especially since it contained one of the Three Rings, would not have been advertised, especially to Numenor, where "Alatar" resided. Elrond would never have taken such a chance.

So, in Minas Tirith, there would have remained VERY little information to start with, and even those who studied such things (not Denethor, surely. He would have prefered accounts of battles and strategies,) would have had very little information to convey to Boromir before he set out. In fact the only information that he seemed to have, comes from Boromir's own quote during the Council of Elrond:

Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

Actually, the fact that Boromir found Rivendell at all may be a case of intervention from Eru. How else could he have stumbled upon such a place, designed to be hidden, concealed by the Elves, an ancient legend, at best, as far as his people were concerned, and probably disguised from outsiders by Elrond's Ring? The odds of Boromir finding it then were about as good as the odds of you finding it now!