The Resurrection of Arnor

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

How did Aragorn suddenly bring Arnor back to life again? The sparse inhabitance of Rangers would hardly have been enough to repopulate it; presumably he took a gathering of colonists North from Gondor, but would that have been possible straight after the War? It was said then that Gondor was sorely underpopulated. It grew again and became as full as it ever was, but that would have taken many years. It had to recover itself before it had the resources to restart the North-Kingdom. It appears that Arnor sprang back into existence shortly after the defeat of Sauron.
Rohan was well-populated. They would have sent a lot of men, but Arnor would have had to be mainly recolonised from the Numenoreans, Gondor, rather than the Northmen of Rohan.

[Kuruharan]

I think that it was a matter of "the king said it so it was so."

I doubt that there was a sudden drastic increase in population in the area. As you wisely point out, where were these people to come from?

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

It is quite unlikely people would have just appeared from nowhere [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. The population probably built up over time because there was no more danger. Illogical to think the Dunedain would have wanted to have children in a world full of peril.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Illogical to think the Dunedain would have wanted to have children in a world full of peril.

The Dunedain did have children. (I take it you mean the Rangers.) Unless, of course, the Northern Dunedain that were around at the end of the Third Age were the same generation that had escaped from the ruin of Arnor. Their small population meant that they could not have many though.

Hmm well it just seems that Arnor seems to have sprang back from the ashes rather quickly, that's all. Unless there were more Dunedain around up there than we realise (which I rather think there were, but not that much). The country would have had few settlements and far between for quite a few years, Bree and the Shire probably being the largest.

[Sharkû]

Take into account the example of the Beornings, who developed from a single man (apparently) into a whole tribe powerful enough to control a pass over the Misty Mountains within less than 80 years.

I assume much the same might have been the case with the resettling of Arnor: both would have needed migrations from 'wild' people (perhaps as of yet under noone's rule) already living in the area.

[Finwe]

I'm sure that the Dunedain were still marrying and having children while they were in the wild. They probably lived in little settlements in the wild, or in towns, like Bree, without seeming obviously "Ranger-ish." After Aragorn became King of the Reunited Kingdom, he probably told all of his Ranger-kin that Arnor was "up" again and that they could live in towns openly again.

[The X Phial]

Actually, I am starting an RPG of this concept with settlers from Gondor and Rohan mostly. It reflects my idea that people from the other kingdoms must have gotten together to repopulate, though the initiative and majority would be from Gondor. Also, there would be a population, not massive, of Rangers to help the settlers establish themselves quickly, and likely join the settlements.

[Rumil]

Remember that Butterbur said that people were moving North up[ the Greenway (perhaps to escape Saruman?) before the War of the Ring.

Whoever these fugitives were, they could have been joined later by the pardoned Dunlendings and perhaps even some repentant 'ruffians' expelled from the Shire. I also wonder if the Beornings might have started to expand west of the Misty Mountains.

As for the rangers, their stronghold was South of Rivendell in the angle between the Loudwater and the Hoarwell. How many people lived there is, of course, a matter for speculation.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I do not think that there would have been a great deal of Rangers living still in Eriador; but there were seemingly enough to keep it guarded. I might have a look at your quote, Finwe:

They probably lived in little settlements in the wild, or in towns, like Bree, without seeming obviously "Ranger-ish."

Firstly, I might clarify that Bree was not a Numenorean settlement. The Breelanders were descendents of the same ancestry as the Rohirrim and the Beornings; the Northmen, who in turn were descended from the ancestors of the Three Houses. However, they were not Numenorean, although they were a part of Arnor while it was alive. Bree was not a 'Ranger settlement'. I don't think that was what you meant, but I feel better with the structure of my post having said it.
Bree was the largest human settlement in familiar Eriador. If there was another like it, it would be known and on the map. As Rumil has said, their main stronghold was South of Rivendell, but they were mostly scattered throughout the wilds; as Halberad said, 'These (thirty horsemen) are all that could be gathered in haste of our scattered people'. The settlements that they had were in the relatively sheltered lands -- Elrond had a very close relationship with them, and gave them a lot of protection I guess -- and they must have had some sort of establishments for their children, women, and other people who would not 'range' out across Eriador in the fashion that the ones we see did, to live in, and as a home base for these to come back to. But still, they would have certainly lived 'Rangerish' lives, as you say. They were the proud, tough remnants of the Numenoreans of the North-Kingdom, ravished and few, and working hard for the protection and continuation of the lands and against Sauron. They were more sheltered than the venturers, but they were still living a wild sort of life. And there were probably not all that many of them. Certainly not enough to repopulate the whole, vast area of Eriador again. Their numbers were also, I would suppose, kept down by the hard life they led.

Good to see you again, old man. Concerning Beorn though -- I do not think that the Beornings would all have 'emerged' from one man, i.e. Beorn. This sounds impossible and certainly very unhealthy. Rather I imagined that Beorn, after the Battle of Five Armies, became a ruler of a Woodmen-like people that inhabited the land near him. A numerous population, probably, and seperate from the more southern Woodmen that lived under the eaves of the forest. As he was a famous and great person, it is easy to imagine that these peopl took their name from him.

Finally on the repopulation of Arnor. I would think, as I have said, that while a smallish number of people from Dunland would have helped settle the land, most of the settlers would have to come from Rohan and Gondor. Primarily Gondor. It is a Numenorean kingdom after all, so Gondor would have to supply most of the inhabitants. The Rangers can be included in this i guess.

[Snowdog]

Finally on the repopulation of Arnor. I would think, as I have said, that while a smallish number of people from Dunland would have helped settle the land, most of the settlers would have to come from Rohan and Gondor. Primarily Gondor. It is a Numenorean kingdom after all, so Gondor would have to supply most of the inhabitants. The Rangers can be included in this i guess.

Interesting discussion here. It seems that it's assumed, except for Gwaihir the Windlord's last post, that only people of Numenorean descent would re-populate Arnor. Gondor, already having their blood mingled with others, namely the Northmen, there could very well be many more mixed blood marriages, especially in the south. The blood-mingling is highlighted in the marriage of Faramir and Éowyn, and also in the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen. But I theorize that in the years after the war, that trade and mingling with the populations of Harad, Khand, and the Easterlings would increase, and surely the Dunlandings would migrate and mingle as well. The fourth Age was the age of men, and they had the ability to increase their population quickly. For some reason I have a hard time believing the Northern Dúnedain's practice of blood purity would endure, and would be seen as a sort of racism in an enlightened society of men brought on by King Elessar.

[Selmo]

I've always imagined that there were other small towns and villages like Bree scattered across Eriador. They're not mentioned because they're not important to the story. They would be populated by people of mixed Numenorian and Northmen descent, as would the bulk of the population of old Arnor (There were not enough refugees from Numenor to establish an entirely Numenorian kingdom. Only the ruling elite would maintain anything approaching a pure blood line.) Tolkien also hints at Hobbits living outside of The Shire and Bree.
In the long years of relative peace after the defeat of Angmar, I can't believe that the population didn't grow.

The re-establishment of the Kingdom of Arnor would consist of uniting the people already living there under a central government in the rebuilt capital city. The only significant population shift would be the movement of a relitively small number of Rangers and Gondorians to the new capital to form the new ruling class.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I should like to return briefly to a point about the Dunlendings and their mingling with other groups of Men. Freca, the lord whom Helm kills at his council, is said to have Dunlending blood, so we can probably assume that at the very least the border-dwelling Rohirrim were mingling with them. If this was happening on the marches of Rohan, I think we can assume that it was happening elsewhere in the restored Kingdom of Arnor as well.

I've not noticed much in the way of references to the population of Arnor at the time of Aragorn's succession. Officially, all that a place needs to be a kingdom is a king who is acknowledged by most of the population, and Aragorn's many visits to Fornost look to me to me like the perambulations of a monarch who is in the process of establishing himself in new lands. He can't simply have been gallivanting off to see his Hobbit friends and neglecting the affairs of state: it just wouldn't suit what we know of his attitude to kingship.

[Snowdog]

In the long years of relative peace after the defeat of Angmar, I can't believe that the population didn't grow.

Actually, I think the years of the Chieftains were more of a diligent watch and battle for the Rangers, with a 'relative peace' assumed by the populace of Bree and an 'ignorant peace' in the Shire.

I've always imagined that there were other small towns and villages like Bree scattered across Eriador. They're not mentioned because they're not important to the story.

Exactly!

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Originally Posted by Gwaihir the Windlord

The Breelanders were descendents of the same ancestry as the Rohirrim and the Beornings; the Northmen, who in turn were descended from the ancestors of the Three Houses

The Men of Bree were actually descended from Men of the White Mountains and akin to the Dunlendings:

Appendix F:

Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree;

Originally Posted by Gwaihir the Windlord

'These (thirty horsemen) are all that could be gathered in haste of our scattered people'

I could not find this line in LR, neither 1st nor 2nd edition. The line actually is:

‘I have thirty with me,’ said Halbarad. ‘That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to the war.

Could anyone tell me if the line quoted by Gwaihir the Windlord can be found anywhere else, as I am interested in the last part of it:

our scattered people

Originally Posted by Selmo

I've always imagined that there were other small towns and villages like Bree scattered across Eriador. They're not mentioned because they're not important to the story. They would be populated by people of mixed Numenorian and Northmen descent, as would the bulk of the population of old Arnor

Maybe there were other towns and villages, but I do not think that any Dúnedain lived permanently in them at the end of the Third Age. Like rumil posted, the main dwelling place of the Rangers was the Angle, according to a note that can be found among JRRT's papers at Marquette University.

[Osse]

There are some interesting theories upon the resettlment of Arnor above, however, I tend to go with Gwaihir, and always assumed that it would have been predominantly men of Numenorean blood (well as close to Numenorean blood that was possible considering the general dillutions...) that were to resettle Arnor. Remember, though Gondor had a comparitively small population (in comparison to the populations of old) it was still a vast country. There were still many, many people living outside of the great cities, in the outlying regions, and in Dol Amroth. Surely with this in mind, there would be enough to begin the resettlment of the North Kingdom. All it would take would be a few hundred Gondorians, supplemented with those of other races looking for a new life, and the kingdom could be reclaimed. Over a period of many years, the population of this new North Kingdom would be great, old works could be restored and it quickly would have been as it was of old. Once populated, the growth of this kingdom would be almost exponential.

Which brings me to another point. Aragorn (and his family) were much haboured by Elrond and the people of Imladris. What is to say that others of the Rangers did not use this community as a sort of life-line or home base? The evidence rather than conflict with the idea tends to support it. What is to say that the young of the northern Dunedain were not (like Aragorn) sometimes sent to live with the elves until they had come of age, or were strong enough to join thier kin in the struggle against the enemy in the north. I always thought that that was the reason for the Angle being located where it was, for ease of travel between Rivendell. Also, it's not inconcievable that the Angle was only a 'military' stronghold for the Rangers, and that the women and children did not in fact abide there? For we must remember that the Rangers were not just a tribe of peoples, but saw themselves to be the guardians of the north against the darkness, and fought (as Aragorn states many times in lotr) ceaselessly against the foes of the Free Peoples. Perhaps the elderly, the women and the children were often sent to live among Elrond's folk, or at least gained aid from them. I do not believe that thirty horsemen were all that could have been gathered if the Dunedain had had a week, but from Halberad's words we can deem (and the situation of the time, perhaps elrond spoke to Halberad, telling him to ride right away) that they only had a very short time to gather forces, and it was not a war party that was riding out, only an envoy... to bring a message to their lord and aid him in his trials. I believe a much greater force would have been available to the Dunedain. We also must remember that the Rangers still had commitments to the other peoples of the north, the Hobbits and the people of Bree and though their protection of these people ended late in the War, such protection could not have been given if the Rangers did have quite a substantial force. If this were so, the Rangers would have had the means to resettle (at least to some extent), it was just that the times were preventing them from increasing their numbers and they had no king, thus couldn't reclaim any kingdoms...

However, when supplemented with the peoples of the south, there would have been numbers enough to reclaim the kingdom at least, and to begin its growth. As for bringing in non-Gondorian peoples or even the ex-enemies of Gondor, I doubt it would have been done. The people would have mingled (especially with the Breelanders) anyway, but I doubt it would have been done intentionally, unless of course as a truce pact -"come and live with us in the new kingdom and forget all old enmities." Which of course, for Aragorn seems quite likely.


Enough from me!

Regards,

Osse

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Osse posted:

What is to say that the young of the northern Dunedain were not (like Aragorn) sometimes sent to live with the elves until they had come of age, or were strong enough to join thier kin in the struggle against the enemy in the north. I always thought that that was the reason for the Angle being located where it was, for ease of travel between Rivendell.

I think that the reason was that the Dúnedain had much collaboration with Elrond and the people of Imladris, especially with the sons of Elrond.

Perhaps the elderly, the women and the children were often sent to live among Elrond's folk

After the fall of Arathorn, Gilraen Aragorn's mother did go and dwell in the house of Elrond, taking Aragorn with her. But perhaps she dwelt there herself for a time because Arathorn had died, else she would perhaps have just taken Aragorn there and then returned immediately to her husband in Eriador:

'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen':

After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador

That sounds like she returned to live with the Rangers (thus she had lived with them before too).


I want to add that Arnor and Gondor were the realms of the Exiles of Númenor and their descendants. Therefore I do not think that people not of Númenórean descent were so easily allowed to come and dwell in them. It is a different matter if they had already long dwelt in them, like the Men of Bree.

I was always under the impression that Gondor - despite being underpopulated in comparision to the days of it's greatest height (and the days of Númenor) - would still be perhaps the most populous of all realms of Middle-Earth. The same could be said of Rohan, where the chief settlement of Rohan, Edoras was rather empty in the days of the War of the Ring, yet King Théoden was able to summon many thousands of Men across the Ridder-Mark at Harrowdale. Of course, if Denethor was in his right mind, he could summon similar numbers across Gondor in addition to the knights of Dol Amroth and Men from other settlements. My point is that despite the relative under population of Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, the numbers of Gondor would still be enough to send a band of pioneers to the North and begin the re-building of Arnor.

I also believe that the Kingdom of Arnor could be rebuilt without the aid of Gondor, because I think that there are plenty of Men in the North as well as the Dúnedain to populate Arnor. What they lacked was leadership, and I don't think Aragorn was in a position to confirm himself as the one to rebuild Arnor until after the War of The Ring, afterall Gondor was under a greater threat. There was no one in the North to rebuild Fornost or Annúminas while defending the North at the same time.

[Lalaith]

What should also be remembered is that after a war, and the men returning home, there is usually a baby boom. This would help in the repopulating of Arnor...

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

What should also be remembered is that after a war, and the men returning home, there is usually a baby boom. This would help in the repopulating of Arnor...

Most likely.

[Elu Ancalime]

I dont think the new King would be a Nazi, but do think he might want Arnor to be more "Numenorean"? Im sure he wouldnt have a problem with other ethnicities, but he would want a dominat Dunedain (not even mixed Gondorian) population and culture right?
________
Vapor Genie Vaporizer

[A_Brandybuck]

We know from the Unfinished Tales, that the region Minhiriath was almost entirely deserted, save a little hunter-folk. In my meaning the region of Minhiriath should lie in the new huge realm of Aragorn. So it is likely, that this people will be integrated in the new realm.
I rather think, that there must be somebody at Tharbad to maintain the Ford or the Bridge, which is natural necessary for the new upcoming traffic between the former divided realms. I don't think, that Aragorn would trust the Dunlendings to do that, so there could be a from the king supported migration to that region. He surely had in mind what the Dunlendings did in Rohan. They infiltrated through the gap and took over Isengard. In his case, I would have the fear, that they will do the same in Tharbad or in any other region. Consequently Aragorn would not try to include the Dunlendings elsewhere.

What about Fornost? Could that be, that some Dúnedain lived there while the late Third Age. I mean Butterbur said, that they go there. But why? There could be some hidden dwellings.