The death of Legolas and Gimli...did they die?

I know that on this site is says that both Legoalas and Gimli make it to Valinor.Albeit, in The Two Towers, after Legolas and Gimli meet back up with Gandalf, he gives the two messages form Galadriel saying to Legolas, "Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more." and then Legolas says to Gimli who complains about the dark message, "Would you have her speak openly to you of your death?" and late Gandalf says "Yes, I think I can guess what her words may mean." So I think that the message was simply an inuendo to warm Legolas of how he would die. I would like any comments on this please or any objections. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

then Legolas says to Gimli who complains about the dark message, "Would you have her speak openly to you of your death?"

I believe you're misunderstanding the conversation:

'Then she sent me no message?' said Gimli and bent his head.
'Dark are her words,' said Legolas, 'and little do they mean to those that receive them.'
'That is no comfort,' said Gimli.
'What then?' said Legolas. 'Would you have her speak openly to you of your death?'
'Yes. if she had nought else to say.'

The conversation, at that point, had moved past Galadriel's warning to Legolas. Gimli was disappointed that Galadriel hadn't seen him a message. Legolas is semi-comforting him, saying basically "No news is good news" - or better news, at least, than bad news.

He did not mean Galadriel was speaking of his own death. She warned him about the sea because once he saw the sea, his longing for it would never leave him and he would not be content until he finally set sail across it.

[StarJewel]

That part confused me too. My whole thing was, once elves got to Valinor, I thought they didnt die. I thought Galadriel was saying that Legolas would die on entering the Undying lands. Then i read it after i got some sleep, and figured it out. Besides, it would be a sad day for all ladies in Middle Earth if Legolas died. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lobelia]

Chuckle! Yes, it would indeed be a sad day for female Legolas fans. Not, mind you, that he showed any signs of interest in anyone.

As I understand it, Gimli, like the hobbits who went to the Undying Lands, would live a normal lifespan. He'd just die a lot happier! This is what Tolkien said in his letters.

I came across a fan story someone here in Oz wrote, in which Sam doesn't actually make it to Valinor, he just thinks, in his senility, that he is getting on an elven ship (they have long stopped going) and drowns under the horrified gaze of his grandson and son-in-law, and Legolas and Gimli don't make it either - a storm comes up and wipes them out. At the time, I thought, "Hang on, hang on, it says..." and went back to the Appendices. And you know what? It never actually said they made it, only that they went. Of Sam, it only says that it was a tradition in his family. I am sure Tolkien INTENDED it to mean what we assume, but it leaves a loophole for cheeky fan writers to slip through. : -- )

[Elentári]

ooh harsh....

no, i always assumed that Legolas and Gimli got there, then Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli died there, cos the Valar can't do anything about mortality. or something.

[Gorwingel]

This thread is probably going to be closed just because it talks about things that we have already discussed in many other threads (Legolas and Gimli, do they really make it to the undying lands?).
I have never heard anything about the charaters running into storms or other things, and dying, or anything like that.

Tolkien really did not write anything additional about the eventual fates of Sam, Legolas, and Gimli. All we know is that they took ships on the sea. He never tells where they end up, or if they ever make it to Valinor, so I guess the rest of the story is really up to our imaginations.

[Luinfang]

Tolkien has never written a thing about the arrival of Sam, Frodo etc, so at least it leaves enough space for speculation. what if they didn't? or who did they meet in Valinor? think about how Elwë would welcome the ringbearer, or how emotional Gandalf would be when he finally set foot on the shores of the land he had left for so many ages. would Gandalf 'change back' to his Maia form Olorin? I guess we'll never know, but it's worth thinking about...

navaer!

[Findegil]

Lets get back to the special topic: Do the messages of Galadriel speak of the death of Legolas?
No, what Legolas adressed saying:

"Would you have her speak openly to you of your death?"

is not the message for him, but the one for Aragorn which was uttered just before and which speaks gloomily of the "path of the dead".

Legolas may not have understand the message to him plainly but, I don't think he associated his own death with it. But the message to Aragorn was for him uninterpretable since he had no kowledge of the history of Gondor and so he thought Galadriel was speaking of Aragorns death.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Roccotari Eldandil]

This diverges a bit from the original question, but I do think that Frodo, Sam, Legolas, Gimli, etc. DID make it to Valinor. Their ship couldn't have been sunk, according to this quote in UT from "Amroth and Nimrodel." (setting: a huge storm has blown up while the ship is still in harbor)

The light Elven-ship was torn from its moorings and driven into the wild waters towards the coasts of Umbar. No tidings of it were ever heard in Middle-earth; but the Elven-ships made for this journey did not founder, and doubtless it left the Circles of the World and came at last to Eressëa.

Ships that were destined for Valinor (at least those that had the permission of the Valar) wouldn't sink. I suppose Ulmo & Uinen restrained Ossë enough to let them through.

[Finwe]

I think that the reason these Elven ships didn't founder is that Ossë himself taught the Teleri how to build ships, and since he is the "Maia of Storms," he'd know how best to build ships so that they won't sink. The art of ship-building passed on through the millennia, and I'm assuming Legolas must have learned it from Cirdan or somewhere else. I don't think that those ships would founder. After all, Ossë loved the Teleri and the Falathrim, he wouldn't let their ships founder. As for Legolas and Gimli, I'm sure that they had special permission to go to Valinor (especially for Gimli) and thus, had a sort of diplomatic immunity.

[Legolas]

Additionally, I can't imagine Osse getting away with doing such a thing - he is a Maia, a servant of the Valar. They would not be happy with him.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The Valar, through Ulmo, Uinen and Osse primarily I would imagine, watched over the ships of Numenor in a similar way; this grace presumably extended to the ships of the Elves as well.

Did Frodo ever reach Valinor? There is an account of it near the end of LoTR. Have a look.

[Arvedui24]

As a Silvan Elf Legolas's longing for Valinor would be subdued until he saw the saw or in his case as in Galadriel's messages heard the sound of gulls. Legolas and Gimli both make it to Valinor as has been mentioned and Legolas will live in peace but as Gimli is still a mortal he would die as his life-span ends.

[FingolfintheBold]

Back once more to the original question, I always interpreted the conversation like this:
Gandalf gives the messages and then lapses into a musing about the words spoken to Aragorn for a moment. Gimli is sad, Legolas doesn't have much pity, then Gandalf figures out the meaning of Galadreil's words and gives Gimli his message.

As for Legolas and Gimli in Valinor, I always thought itwas pretty clear cut that the elf would live for obvious reasons and that Gimli would eventually die like other mortals. Unless he was granted a special get out of death free card like others in ME seem to have done...

[Lord of Angmar]

He did not mean Galadriel was speaking of his own death. (Legolas)

Funny, I always took it to mean just that. It was my understanding that Legolas believed that Galadriel's message portended the Prince of Mirkwood's demise, when in fact it was a prophecy that the Sea-longing of his people would be awakened in him. After all, "Beware the Sea!" does seem rather ominous.

For obvious reasons, as Gwaihir stated, Legolas would not die upon reaching Valinor. I am, however of the (entirely non-factual) opinion that the mortal members of the Fellowship who departed across the Sea were somehow granted immortality by Iluvatar. I suppose I should not say that I am of that opinion, but I like to think that it is possible. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers!
-Angmar

[Legolas]

Lord of Angmar: Legolas was undoubtedly saying to Gimli 'no news (from Galadriel) is better than bad news'...you know, 'don't be disappointed she didn't send you any message - that's better than her sending a message of doom to you.' He did not mean that Galadriel's message to him was about death. He could've inserted any bad news in his statement to Gimli; he chose death to exaggerate his point, make it more obvious.

Tolkien explicitly states that Bilbo, Sam, Frodo, and Gimli died in Aman. You can read the quotes here (and the threads linked to at the bottom):

Mortals in Aman

Some of the most concise quotes (but I recommend you reading the article with the entire excerpt from Tolkien's letters):

They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world.

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time.

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long.

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]