Stereotypes

[Kuruharan]

We all know that Tolkien's works have had a profound influence upon later fantasy works...or at least its often presumed so...

However, the other day I was reading this (admittedly a tremendously fantastic work of literature there...can't I read something just for kicks and giggles too... ) and it suddenly occurred to me that for all of Tolkien's presumed influence over the milieu of later fantasy world creation, a lot of the stereotypes widely associated with dwarves and elves, as an example, do not really derive from Tolkien at all.

Take dwarves for example...where in the world did the stereotype that the dwarves are a bunch of pickled alcoholics come from? It must have come from somewhere but I don't find anything in Tolkien's work to point to as the genesis of this notion.

For elves, they are commonly pictured as being arrogant and aloof to the point of utter superciliousness, but to my reading Tolkien's elves are not like that, although I suppose this may be the way they read to other people.

I'm specifically curious about everyone's opinions about Tolkien's influence over the later conceptualization of elves and dwarves, but I'm also interested if people can think of other things related to this too.

[Gwathagor]

That's interesting, since while Tolkien certainly added his own elements to mythological stereotypes, he also built on existing mythologies and folklore, and so relied on older stereotypes.

The idea of elves as a highly developed culture originates in Middle-Earth for sure. In the older fairy tales of which I am aware, elves are simply another species of rustic woodland sprite, rather than great craftsmen, loremasters, and artisans.

I'm also inclined to think that pre-Tolkien elves are smaller and weaker, but that may only be the subversive effect of the Enlightenment tainting my soul. Now that I think about it, I believe that in the oldest elf-tales, the elves are rather tall and bright-eyed, like Tolkien's, but they seem to get smaller and more tame the farther we get from the middle-ages. So, at least in that case, it seems that Tolkien reverted to the oldest stereotypes in a kind of stereotype-revolution.

What about dwarves? Were they typically considered as being miners prior to The Hobbit? I'm not sure. I know that Terry Brooks chose to give his Dwarves an intense aversion to anything resembling underground tunnels and caves, which I thought was an interesting contrast with Tolkien-dwarves.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, the other day I was reading this (admittedly a tremendously fantastic work of literature there...can't I read something just for kicks and giggles too... )

I forgive you.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Take dwarves for example...where in the world did the stereotype that the dwarves are a bunch of pickled alcoholics come from? It must have come from somewhere but I don't find anything in Tolkien's work to point to as the genesis of this notion.

I believe the whole 'party-hearty' dwarf stereotype arose from various roleplaying games (like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance). This is partly attributable to Tolkien, but only in the sense that he borrowed names from Norse (Icelandic) lore, and there is a whole mythos of the dvergar in the Poetic Eddas. Hence, many roleplayers associated dwarves with those hard-living marauders of old, Vikings (and any stereotypical drawing of a dwarf warrior certainly has the appearance of the commonly misconceived picture of a Viking -- complete with the horned helmets which no one actually wore). And so, the idea of a mead-drinking, beserker dwarf is perpetuated.

Of course, Tolkien certainly added the patina of greed to dwarfdom, but that has always been there, as anyone who is familiar with Alberich the Nibelung in Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen will recall. Wagner in turn borrowed liberally from earlier Germanic and Norse material regarding dwarves hoarding gold. And dwarves (and their cousins, Kobolds) have always been associated with mining and the Norse dvergar for crafting (Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, Odin's ring, Draupnir, and his spear, Gugnir, etc.).

Currently, of course, every roleplaying dwarf seems to have picked up a heavy Scottish brogue as well as the drunken, belching boisterousness of Gimli from the LotR films. I guess it is now a requirement for dwarves to use the term 'laddie' and recite malaprop-ridden broken bits of Robert Burns poems. Amusingly, Tolkien said in an interview with the BBC that he'd constructed Khuzdul like a Semitic language. If anything, a dwarf might sound more like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof. Oyveh!

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

For elves, they are commonly pictured as being arrogant and aloof to the point of utter superciliousness, but to my reading Tolkien's elves are not like that, although I suppose this may be the way they read to other people.

Actually, there is much elvish aloofness and callousness in the Silmarillion. One only has to read passages wherein Caranthir, Celegorm or Curufin speak to get the sense that these were in no way kindly or well-meaning elves. Eol was another quintessentially malevolent elf, and let's not forget Saeros or Thingol (whose rudeness actually got them killed). Even Feanor, for all his brilliance, was arrogant and malign (slaughtering the well-meaning Teleri and stealing their ships was certainly not the work of a mirthful and benevolent elf).

[The Sixth Wizard]

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Could someone provide the link to the thread where members were debating whether or not Tolkien's books were racist? After all, he made Southrons swarthy, cruel, riders of elephants, my emphasis on "swarthy".

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think you are jumping to conclutions when you say that be semitic Tolkien ment the Jews and it is one of those things that could spark a heated debate, which will get this discustion way off track.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Hmm... if anything I would think that the elves would be more like the Jews. After all they were the first beings to be created, that ties into them being God's chosen people


I just love how Tolkien created all these different cultures within Middle Earth. For example we have Southrons, Easterlings, Gondorians, Breelanders, the Men of Dale, and not to mention all the different hobbit families. It is one of those things that you can relate to in Tolkien's works. That’s the one thing that I love about Tolkien, you never doubt the it as being fantasy, yet you can find parallels between his world and ours.

I think that's one of the things that people have tried to copy from his books, fantasy that you can relate to.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Hmm... if anything I would think that the elves would be more like the Jews. After all they were the first beings to be created, that ties into them being God's chosen people

Just a side note: if you were to ascribe such thing to anyone in M-E, it would be the Dúnedain, I think (or then, some Vanyar, if you were to stick to the Elves. However). Because "chosen people" are already chosen (obviously) from some group which already exists. Using the biblical comparison, God created all people, and Abraham is just one of them (and even that after a long time). But Adam, Eve and all the others are simply ordinary people. Also, in Middle-Earth you have the problem with there being two, and not just one, such races - Men and Elves. And if we were to seek for a nation, or a group among them with the vocation like the biblical Israel, then I don't think there actually really is such a nation in the very same sense. Among the Men, like I said, I would speak about the Dúnedain. Because between the Elves, you really don't have anyone who would be specifically chosen to mediate, or at least carry, Eru's (or anyone's) will. We cannot compare it to the invitation to Valinor, as that's actually the opposite direction. And in any case, all Elves are invited by Oromë personally, it's not that he would invite just one group and then f.ex. let them tell to the rest (however that's not exactly the role ascribed to the biblical Israel as well). And by leaving, that group will leave the other Elves in Middle-Earth. That doesn't make sense. We would be looking for some Anti-Noldor, probably: a group who will be re-sent to Middle-Earth to act in a certain way among the other nations. However even then it will be just a single act, once they left, the contact with Valinor will be cut again. So, maybe some Teleri? Like the ones who kept communicating with Númenor. Or then, among the Men, the Dúnedain themselves. After their return to Middle-Earth after the fall of Númenor, the role of Dúnedain was probably the closest to the role of the Chosen People: to be a living reminder of something among the other nations (of Men, in this case). However, still in contrary to the people of biblical Israel, the Dúnedain had a prominent role in the structures of power in Middle-Earth.

If I were to say whom I really think close to this, it will be only one person, and that's Tuor, who is personally in contact with one of the Valar (!) and is given a certain task. But that's only one episode, however by its nature I consider it very close. Also, this trait goes with his family - Eärendil later is the one to reach Valinor and is given the favour to speak again to the Valar and ask for help as a representative of all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth; and ultimately, it comes down to their descendants, who are the Dúnedain - so this is what I said above. So maybe this.

Hmm... But that would be probably better for another thread.

In any case, I don't think the way you put it was not the original meaning of how the comparison was meant. It concerned only language, and nothing else. Unfortunately, there is just a very little of Khudzul known, as far as I know. In the risk of another off-topic chain, but just as a question, was there any more of Khudzul in Tolkien's work asides from things like Khazad-Dum or the names of the mountains or such?

[Bêthberry]

The standard online reference for Tolkien languages, The Ardalambion, has the fullest Kazdul lexicon and grammar I've ever seen--or at least, did, last time I looked for said info.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The idea of elves as a highly developed culture originates in Middle-Earth for sure. In the older fairy tales of which I am aware, elves are simply another species of rustic woodland sprite, rather than great craftsmen, loremasters, and artisans.

But what about the whole gnome (who later became the Noldor) thing? I'm sure it says something about him meaning "gnome" (from Greek, I believe) in the knowledgeable sense, and he got that from somewhere (Sadly I have no copy on me right now).

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If I were to say whom I really think close to this, it will be only one person, and that's Tuor, who is personally in contact with one of the Valar (!) and is given a certain task.

But if we go with elves, then I would say that the "prophet" among them would be Cirdan.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Could someone provide the link to the thread where members were debating whether or not Tolkien's books were racist? After all, he made Southrons swarthy, cruel, riders of elephants, my emphasis on "swarthy".

Tolkien did in fact compare his Dwarves to the Jews occationally. And as the Dwarves do have a weakness for gold I can only assume that T did make use of the old stereotype of Jews beeing greedy hoarders. Then again, all races in ME have their virtues and flaws. Men, for example, are easily swayed by the evil powers whereas the Dwarves in contrast are much more honourable and steadfast.

Here's a quote from Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ where you also can find a brief discussion on other racism charges: (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html)

One occasional charge is that Tolkien was anti-semitic, presumably because he occasionally compared his Dwarves to Jews. Those comparisons seem to focus on history and language, however: in Letter #176 he says, "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.....". And he seems to have had a very positive view of the Jewish people in general.

Prior to the second world war Tolkien recieved a letter from the German government asking him to establish his racial purity so they could authorize an official translation of The Hobbit. This is (part of) the answer they recieved:

Thank you for your letter.... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend," he wrote. "I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are inquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people....

Edit: I believe the faulty notion of Vikings wearing horned helmets came from some bungling 19th century museumintendent, who thought it looked cool to match a few drinking vessels made of horn with helmets, or something like that... At least that's what a mate once told me (he studies archeology).

[The Sixth Wizard]

+rep skip spence.

Thanks for settling the matter. I should never have doubted you, Professor Tolkien!

<EDIT> Oh sorry, missed the p in your name...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

+rep skip sence.

Why thank you. Here's another analogy between the Dwarves and the Jews.

You know the scene when Aule lifted his hammer to crush his action figures after being found out by Eru, who of course spared them and gave them the gift of life. Reminds you of something?

God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm also inclined to think that pre-Tolkien elves are smaller and weaker, but that may only be the subversive effect of the Enlightenment tainting my soul. Now that I think about it, I believe that in the oldest elf-tales, the elves are rather tall and bright-eyed, like Tolkien's, but they seem to get smaller and more tame the farther we get from the middle-ages. So, at least in that case, it seems that Tolkien reverted to the oldest stereotypes in a kind of stereotype-revolution.

I'd say so. Read Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories. He somewhat explains there his aversion towards "stereotypes" of fairy-tale elves (or fairies, both of these terms being exchangeable for one another in his case) being of diminutive size and having wings and such.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Amusingly, Tolkien said in an interview with the BBC that he'd constructed Khuzdul like a Semitic language. If anything, a dwarf might sound more like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof. Oyveh!

Oh my, I didn't know - but now thinking of it, if I imagine the Dwarves in Bag End singing their song in the manner of let's say "Hinne ma tov", or "Avinu malkeynu" (that could especially fit singing the song in Beorn's house), it might sound really good and fitting - the chorus of the deep thirteen voices...

I would finish with a question - what do you think about Orcs? (Or goblins, or whatever...) I am not aware of the concept of Orcs in the mythology before Tolkien, of course they probably were up to no good, whatever they were, but simply: Were they like that, or in which aspects were they like that? I.e. to which point is Tolkien constituing a new, set view of Orcs, against the concept that was before (if there was any)? I mean, since Tolkien, Orcs are portrayed in every fantasy book (movie, computer game...) like they are, you say "Orc" and everyone knows what to imagine under it - and they imagine more or less the same, at least concerning the basical traits. With goblins, it's somewhat different, but Orcs as Orcs seem to be more or less the same everywhere. What is Tolkien's invention about them, and what was here before?

[Kuruharan]

The idea of elves as a highly developed culture originates in Middle-Earth for sure.
Gwathagor

To the best of my knowledge this is correct and I think the same could be said for dwarves as well…although if I’m wrong about that somebody please correct me.

I know that Terry Brooks chose to give his Dwarves an intense aversion to anything resembling underground tunnels and caves, which I thought was an interesting contrast with Tolkien-dwarves.
Gwathagor

I think the contrast with Tolkien was deliberate on Brooks’ part, although I’m not terribly familiar with those stories and might be mistaken about that too.

I believe the whole 'party-hearty' dwarf stereotype arose from various roleplaying games (like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance). This is partly attributable to Tolkien, but only in the sense that he borrowed names from Norse (Icelandic) lore, and there is a whole mythos of the dvergar in the Poetic Eddas. Hence, many roleplayers associated dwarves with those hard-living marauders of old, Vikings (and any stereotypical drawing of a dwarf warrior certainly has the appearance of the commonly misconceived picture of a Viking -- complete with the horned helmets which no one actually wore). And so, the idea of a mead-drinking, beserker dwarf is perpetuated.
Morthoron

I think you are quite right here. A stereotype based on another mythical stereotype.

Currently, of course, every roleplaying dwarf seems to have picked up a heavy Scottish brogue as well as the drunken, belching boisterousness of Gimli from the LotR films.
Morthoron

Also true. That was another thing I thought about; how that specific stereotype made it into the Lord of the Rings movies.

Amusingly, Tolkien said in an interview with the BBC that he'd constructed Khuzdul like a Semitic language. If anything, a dwarf might sound more like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof. Oyveh!
Morthoron

Here’s something to ponder…instead of the usual conceptualization of dwarves in a Norse/Scotch motif…how about a culture that in some ways look like its more from ancient Babylon/Assyria.

Think about it.

For example, the Norse names were adopted as a form of “cover” (if you will) from the mannish cultures around the dwarves…

Actually, there is much elvish aloofness and callousness in the Silmarillion. One only has to read passages wherein Caranthir, Celegorm or Curufin speak to get the sense that these were in no way kindly or well-meaning elves. Eol was another quintessentially malevolent elf, and let's not forget Saeros or Thingol (whose rudeness actually got them killed). Even Feanor, for all his brilliance, was arrogant and malign (slaughtering the well-meaning Teleri and stealing their ships was certainly not the work of a mirthful and benevolent elf).
Morthoron

All of this is quite true (although I’m not sure I’d classify Eol as malevolent, exactly, but that’s a discussion for another time)…however it seems to me that later fantasy has heightened it to an extreme…a superciliousness to the point of foppishness in some cases. However, I must concede that may be attributable to the rather lacking qualities or other intentions of the authors in question.

to which point is Tolkien constituing a new, set view of Orcs, against the concept that was before (if there was any)? I mean, since Tolkien, Orcs are portrayed in every fantasy book (movie, computer game...) like they are, you say "Orc" and everyone knows what to imagine under it - and they imagine more or less the same, at least concerning the basical traits. With goblins, it's somewhat different, but Orcs as Orcs seem to be more or less the same everywhere. What is Tolkien's invention about them, and what was here before?
Legate

*cheats and looks on wikipedia*

*shame*

Apparently orcs as we commonly know them are Tolkien’s invention…but returning to my original line of thinking that began this thread, I have to ask myself how closely subsequent concepts of orcs follow Tolkien’s original idea (not because I think later works must slavishly follow Tolkien’s concept but because I think that the later concepts are not really as close to Tolkien’s original as might be commonly supposed).

For instance, does your mental image of orcs look like this? Mine always sort of did I'm afraid...but I know that is not how Tolkien described them. (Actually, I'm afraid the first time I "saw" an orc it looked like this.)

To me it seems like in some ways modern fantasy may owe a lot more to D&D than it does to Tolkien.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

IVikings (and any stereotypical drawing of a dwarf warrior certainly has the appearance of the commonly misconceived picture of a Viking -- complete with the horned helmets which no one actually wore).

Great, now my medievalist brain is confused. My Professor said that Vikings did indeed wear the horned helmets.

[Gwathagor]

Not into battle they didn't.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

For instance, does your mental image of orcs look like this? Mine always sort of did I'm afraid...but I know that is not how Tolkien described them. (Actually, I'm afraid the first time I "saw" an orc it looked like this.)

I know the green orcs came straight from Warhammer. Actually, some of the dwarf and elf stereotypes probably came from there too.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by McCaber

I know the green orcs came straight from Warhammer. Actually, some of the dwarf and elf stereotypes probably came from there too.

That certainly seems likely.

The popularity of the product undoubtedly helped in making its conceptions the norm...followed by the popularity of the Warcraft franchise, which is an offshoot of Warhammer and we now have the green vaguely boarish orcs we all know and love today...even though they barely resemble what Tolkien originally wrote.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Great, now my medievalist brain is confused. My Professor said that Vikings did indeed wear the horned helmets.

There is no evidence to suggest that warriors of the Viking Era had pronounced horns jutting from their helms. Here is a decent cross section of notable helmets...

http://www.regia.org/helmet.htm

And another...

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti...ng_helmets.htm

The idea of horned helms is basically a misinterpretation of the historical record, and figments of Wagner's ostentatious 19th century operas (where Viking helms sprouted horns or wings); however, there is evidence that horns might have appeared atop helmets in Bronze Age Scandinavia (800 - 400 B.C.). The Viking Era is generally given as 700 or 800 to 1100 A.D.

Even the Sutton Hoo helm (500-600 A.D.), a great relic of the Vendel style, is beautifully ornamented, but has no horns whatsoever...

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main...y-thefinds.htm

I'd like to see your professor's evidence, as there are very few helmets of the Viking era still extant.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Great, now my medievalist brain is confused. My Professor said that Vikings did indeed wear the horned helmets.

Your professor would be lynched if he said that at Finderup Lade (The history-bar at the University of Copenhagen)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Currently, of course, every roleplaying dwarf seems to have picked up a heavy Scottish brogue as well as the drunken, belching boisterousness of Gimli from the LotR films. I guess it is now a requirement for dwarves to use the term 'laddie' and recite malaprop-ridden broken bits of Robert Burns poems.

Scottish roleplaying dwarves used to crop up before the movies came out. I'm afraid the influence was the other way around...