Dragon's Flame, Magical?

[Groin Redbeard]

This is a question I've been thinking about lately and I'd like to see what you guys think about it.

It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough.
It was also said somewhere in the Silmarilion that the dwarves had built some type of armor that could withstand a dragon's flame.

Is dragon fire have magic in it in order to destroy the rings of power? And if that is true does that mean that dwarves can build magical armor?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Let me answer to you with a question.

What do you imagine under the term "magical"?

It is necessary for anyone who ventures further into the realms of Arda to throw away all his images of "magic" from other fantasy books, films, games (the latter mainly) etc. because magic in Middle-Earth... well, if you ask me, I'd say that it's better to say that there is no magic in Middle-Earth at all, it is at least closer to truth than coming here with the idea of magic one brings in from elsewhere.

Galadriel (to Sam; about her mirror):

For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.

Lórien elves on Elf-cloaks:

"Are these magic cloaks?" asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
"I do not know what you mean by that," answered the leader of the Elves. "They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean."

The Elf is obviously confused and does not know what Pippin is asking about; and I think his stance is pretty much the same now as mine towards your question. So if you ask this way, yes, the dragon fire was magic and the dwarven armours, likewise, were magic. Relatively spoken.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Let me answer to you with a question.

What do you imagine under the term "magical"?

Little Green came up with an interesting thought on power instead of magic. Now that I think about it, I think power would be a better word than "magic".

Originally Posted by Litlle Green

Actually, the points you brought up made me think about an additional question. If dragon flame could consume rings of power but not dwarven armour, then is the dwarven mail actually stronger (or rather, more endurant) than a ring of power?

I like that idea very much! I wouldn't put it past those dwarves!

By the way - the passage "but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough" somehow makes me awfully sad.

That is also another question I have, thanks for bringing that up LG! When Gandalf says that, is he implying that there are still dragons in Arda?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I'm not particularly sure about Tolkien's dragons (dragons are creatures of which I never bother to find anything out as I don't really like them), but were they fire spirits like the balrogs?

I think dragons are just creatures, just like the fell beasts. Since they were made by Melkor, he already had his servents. That's another question, are fell beasts related to dragons

Ahhh, so many questions!

EDIT: Maybe these are too many questions for one thread. Let's just stick to the topic at hand.

[The Might]

About the mail, considering that it has to be heat resistant I think it also has a lot to do with what it is amde of and not how it is made.
What about a heat resistant alloy?

It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring.
Superalloys that are not only quite heat resistant but also have great mechanical strength (making them good for armor) take up to 1100°C.

What if dragons were only capable of lesser temperatures? That is an explanation I believe.


About the dragons, yes, there certainly were some left.

And finally about their origin.
In the Silmarillion they are presented as a corrupted stock, another of Morgoth's creations like the fell beasts the Nazgul used in the War of the Ring.
However, in a later passage from the Children of Húrin they are called "great spirits", which kind of implies that they, or at least some of them, might be fallen spirits, similar to the balrogs.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Might

It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring.
Superalloys that are not only quite heat resistant but also have great mechanical strength (making them good for armor) take up to 1100°C.

Or what if mithril and the One Ring were made of something more heat-resistant we people of these ages of decay do not know anymore?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Might

It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring.
Superalloys that are not only quite heat resistant but also have great mechanical strength (making them good for armor) take up to 1100°C.

What if dragons were only capable of lesser temperatures? That is an explanation I believe.

If it was that simple, then surely Lord of the Rings should be a guide to build a forge. . .

[Thinlómien]

I agree with Nogrod and Rune. Unfortunately, I don't have my LotR here and I can't remember the exact quote about destroying the ring in a Dwarven forge (at least not in English ), but however it is phrased, it always sounded to me like Dwarves could make ordinary gold melt, but not the One Ring.

[The Might]

No, I only think that it is really hot.

[Aganzir]

I think I've read some fantasy books in which the dragons spit acid instead of fire, and at least to me that sounds a thousand times more credible than fire-spitting dragons.

I'm not particularly sure about Tolkien's dragons (dragons are creatures of which I never bother to find anything out as I don't really like them), but were they fire spirits like the balrogs? If yes, I wouldn't question their ability to spit fire nor to have magical powers (just like Gandalf and Sauron, for instance, had) or even "magical fire".

A poisonous acid might explain the dwarves' armours, though. Even if a fire-spitting dragon couldn't melt their armours, the heat would have killed them. It's easier to be safe from acids.

edit: crossed with Leggy and Miggy

[The Might]

Oh, xed as well.
As for the armors, this brings to my Science of M-e thread.

Not really sure what could be used to make some heat resistand outfit, but as long as some like that exist today I see no reason why the Dwarves would not have been able to make something liek that as well.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I do not think that dragon fire was magical in the sence that it could destroy specially chosen items like ring of power, that otherwise could not be destoryed by fire. It must be (like the might says) that dragon fire is so much hotter than other kinds of fire (save the fire of mount doom) that enables it to destroy mighty/magical objects.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Oh, and sorry for the flood, but Aganzir's made me think more about the dragons. What actually were they? Who made them, and for what purpose? I guess that if some letters/HoME scholar had an explanation for that first, the rest should work out.

Dragons were something like animals, rather, only twisted by Morgoth and with stronger spirits inside them. Similar to werewolves, though please correct me if I am wrong; or Eagles, or even Ents. I wrote longer post about that in my early days around here, let's see if I can find it... here (that is the last post in the thread).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If they where just "animals" twisted by Morgoth, what animals where they then?

I have always seen them as creatures like Balrogs or as you say Ents ect.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You did not understand me. See that post I linked to for more. I don't mean that they were animals, but that they were some sorts of "construction from flesh and bone" inhabited by vile spirits. And be careful about mixing Balrogs into it, Balrogs were fallen Maiar. It's a matter of difference in "acquiring" the body; the Balrogs chose their own form and later it degraded and they could not change it anymore, while the dragon and similar spirits were "trapped" in a body prepared for them.

[A Little Green]

Interesting question, Groin. Actually, the points you brought up made me think about an additional question. If dragon flame could consume rings of power but not dwarven armour, then is the dwarven mail actually stronger (or rather, more endurant) than a ring of power?

I don't know about magic, though - I'd rather talk about power. The dragons were, after all, beings of a different time, a time when everything was greater, fairer, and younger. I find it perfectly reasonable to think that beings as mighty as the dragons would be able to destroy rings of power. It's the comparison to the dwarven mail thingy that feels problematic.

By the way - the passage "but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough" somehow makes me awfully sad.

Sorry, Groin - instead of answering your question I just made another. What is this, answering a question with a question? Brings me in mind of Rosencranz and Guildenstern...

[A Little Green]

I just cross-posted with, what, three people? Gosh, your thread is popular, Groin...

Oh, and sorry for the flood, but Aganzir's

Originally Posted by Agan

I'm not particularly sure about Tolkien's dragons (dragons are creatures of which I never bother to find anything out as I don't really like them), but were they fire spirits like the balrogs?

made me think more about the dragons. What actually were they? Who made them, and for what purpose? I guess that if some letters/HoME scholar had an explanation for that first, the rest should work out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Interesting question, Groin. Actually, the points you brought up made me think about an additional question. If dragon flame could consume rings of power but not dwarven armour, then is the dwarven mail actually stronger (or rather, more endurant) than a ring of power?

I don't know about magic, though - I'd rather talk about power. The dragons were, after all, beings of a different time, a time when everything was greater, fairer, and younger. I find it perfectly reasonable to think that beings as mighty as the dragons would be able to destroy rings of power. It's the comparison to the dwarven mail thingy that feels problematic.

Well, I think concerning the dwarven armour, it's rather a matter of "technology" - the mail was made on purpose to resist dragon fire. Think about all the military developement, or for a more peaceful example, the research of cures and antidotes. The Rings were not made as something that should resist dragon fire (like that you'd make an anti-dragon shelter from a pile of Rings or create for yourself a Ring-mail ), their resistance to fire is a "side power".

EDIT: x-ed since LG's post I am replying to. Yay, this is almost as a WW game thread!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This reminds me of the first thread I started. . .
http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12245

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

By the way - the passage "but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough" somehow makes me awfully sad.

Yes, I've always thought that too. In Tolkien's world, everything deteriorates. He is quite traditionalist (And he kept to being a strict CAtholic, and looked with scorn at anyone who bent the religion a bit).

Morgoth is like an inventor. If he creates dragons that are made to destroy, they destro. Their fire goes under the same rule. It is obviously very hot and the green flames maybe mean that something is special in that fire that is not the same as in normal fire. Glaurung almost destroyed Gondolin by himself. ALso, how can you compare dragons to animals? (and I mean the regular type).
Here dragons can talk and think, and if I remember correctly, hypnotise people just by people looking in their eyes. That takes some brainpower.
The fire is obviously very hot, but mithril armour, in its nature, is magical to us. It may have had a very high melting point.
The rings, once made, could not be destroyed by the same heat that would melt gold, because they were infused with magic/power of an Ainu. This would mean that it would require more magic/power to destry it. Magic vs magic. And since the dragons were made to destroy, the rings would melt. But the one ring was made not to be destroyed, or a t least, Sauron infused it with so much magic that nothing except him, or the heat which made it (And could melt it in the first place) could destroy it.

So, as previous people havesaid, dragon magic is magic for us, but not in ME. They were made to destroy so they destroy*.



*this might be a bit irrelevant but it might be like a placebo. If you think you are better, you are better. If you think you can destroy a ring of power you can. There was once a man who held up a truck for a hours, until an ambulance came to save the person trapped inside. When you need to do something, your body finds away to do it.