Think about it. Please.

[Sauron the White]

Something to think about that may spur an interesting discussion.

I am not trying to be controversial or provoking anyone or causing trouble. I am trying to get at what I think is a very central fact about the Barrows-Downs as a place of discussion.

I wonder... if you took any film(s) which is/are based on a well known and well loved book such as LOTR... and that book had a significant following of intelligent people such as the folks here with LOTR ... and they could have years to watch and rewatch the film(s) over and over and over again .... and if they could read the thoughts, writings, articles, journal entries, musings and books of others on the subject of adapting the books into film(s) .... and many of those same people had some sort of axe to grind, some sort of personal antagonism towards the film(s) ....... and many of those same people are considered experts in that field and have spent decades honing their knowledge and espertise...

I wonder if any film or set of films could stand up to that sort of examination for that length of time in that sort of detail under those conditions?

I mention this because it often strikes me as a very unusual dynamic that exists here. It is obvious beyond debate that the LOTR films were wildly successful in terms of making money, professional critical reviews and industry awards. It looks like some 500 million people truly enjoyed those films. And that does not even count the DVD sales or those who did not buy but have seen them either on TV or through others copies. But the opinion of the public, the opinion of the critics, the opinion of industry professionals as expressed in awards of excellence,
... all that combined seems to not even make a dent in the collective opinion of the Purist community. In fact, when I or others bring up these facts, they are treated like so much flotsam and jetsam. Its like "the world can go to blazes for all I care and I do not care one iota if almost everyone stands against me".

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. No problem there.

But this situation brings up the old story about the proud mother who went to see her son playing in the marching band in a holiday parade. As the band came by, her son was the sole member marching out of step with every single other member of the band. A few people around here noticed and commented on it. But before they could say a word to her, she puffed out her proud chest and remarked loudly "everyone is out of step but my Johnny".

Do you think she was correct?

[alatar]

I think that I stated my reasons for being nitpicky regarding the movies, my observations regarding the Downs' culture and other wonderous wit and wisdom can be found here, and so will be lazy and point all there.

That all said, you also have to factor in the boredom factor. It's definitely more fun to post here than in the Books (at least to me). And with you objecting, I can post even more, thereby avoiding even more work. If the movies were never made, I would have targeted something else, maybe in Mirth, but as we have the Movies...

And the question regarding Johnny is relative. When you drive down the road, are you moving or are the trees/houses? Depends on your point of view. Isn't there another story about an elephant walking by a fence with a hole in it, and being observed at different angles by different persons? Each was right, but not seeing the whole, none could not understand the others' observations. Another favorite is two friends on opposite sides of a street, arguing to the point of violence regarding the color of a pedestrian's hat - one said "Green!" while the other said, "Red!". It's not until the person turns 180 degrees do the friends realize that the hat was red on one side and green on the other. Both were right but didn't consider that the other's point of view may be equality valid for a reason yet discovered.

Hope we can do that.

[Sauron the White]

alatar - thanks for responding.... I did go to the link and found that you said this in response to another question from me months ago

A certain set of all the posting members here do not like the Jackson films. So? A set of the same do not like going to the cinema, would rather be along with a book than at a pub, and can type much faster in a nonnative language than I can in my own. Is that not their right to be thus?

That I get. Clearly. But what mystifies me is why would someone who does not like movies, prefers books, etc. even come to the Movies section here and bother posting? With you its killing hours off work. At least thats what you humorously claim. And I am all in favor of putting it to the boss. Is that what is happening here? Lot of people getting paid to one job but goofing off having a fun time of it? Its got to be more than that. I hope. Or maybe western civilization is indeed a lot worse off than we thought.

Using myself as an example. I am not a video gamer. Have never played any of them and have zero interest in ever doing so. Thats probably because I am old and they did not have them when we were being chased by the neighborhood dinosaurs. But I do not go to game sections of boards and pick fights with people and rant and rave about how empty or meaningless their lives are or criticize their entertainment of choice. That would make no sense to me to do that.

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

That I get. Clearly. But what mystifies me is why would someone who does not like movies, prefers books, etc. even come to the Movies section here and bother posting?

That does sound insane. Don't know if these people truly 'hate' the movies. Maybe they do and feel it their duty to let the world know. As below, when you mention game sites, I've read a few posts on said forums (to help my son) and it seems there much time is wasted telling people how wonderfully tough one is. Surely if someone studied this, they'd find that some need is being met (obviously).

With you its killing hours off work. At least thats what you humorously claim. And I am all in favor of putting it to the boss. Is that what is happening here? Lot of people getting paid to one job but goofing off having a fun time of it? Its got to be more than that. I hope. Or maybe western civilization is indeed a lot worse off than we thought.

Okay, so I may be fibbing regarding that reason. Could it be that my posts in the Books section go unanswered? Do others observe the same, and so, knowing that the movies, being a different and visual medium, produce a more visceral experience, and so attract more rabid posters like myself, which then at least gets some response? If a post falls in the woods...

I'd also consider ease of access. Some may be put off by the Books, but everyone has watched movies, and so may feel more comfortable posting here, especially if you can find something that at least a few others find contentious. Could it be age related? As more and more of the world is video (i.e. YouTube), do our younger members find more interest in the movies, as that's what they live with 24/7?

I'd hate to blow my cover, but I spend more time reading the books than critiquing the movies.

Using myself as an example. I am not a video gamer. Have never played any of them and have zero interest in ever doing so. Thats probably because I am old and they did not have them when we were being chased by the neighborhood dinosaurs. But I do not go to game sections of boards and pick fights with people and rant and rave about how empty or meaningless their lives are or criticize their entertainment of choice. That would make no sense to me to do that.

Sense? What sense does anything make?

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Must be the medium. Hmmm...

[Lalwendë]

I'm not sure the video game analogy works because while you might never play video games, everyone watches films.

But that kind of illustrates the point following on now...

Tolkien fans, myself included, are Nerds (or Geeks or whatever is correct these days). And nerds are probably the biggest pedants you are ever likely to meet. Nothing is quite so enjoyable as proving your mastery of utterly trivial facts or winning an inconsequential argument about Balrog wings. It's also very important to make sure all the other fans know just how cool you are by making a big noise about dissing all the right things to diss and having all the right editions and not opening the packaging and so on and so forth. Rather like Comic Book Guy off The Simpsons.

It's something shared not just by Tolkien fans but also by fans of a hundred and one other things e.g. Star Wars, Star Trek, and so on...

And I say that with complete honesty, thinking about the hours I've wasted on Facebook doing the Lord of the Rings trivia challenge, the vast amounts of cash I've splurged on Tolkien stuff and the way I secretly hope someone will see my Tolkien Society badge when I'm haunting the sci-fi section in Waterstones...



We do it because it's fun and it's just part of the territory of being a nerdy fan. I do it even though I enjoyed the films so much I bought around 100 of the action figures.

"Worst episode ever..."

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Perhaps we, both book and movie fans, are desperately hopeful of finding the entwives and believe they can be found if we could only tease out the right leaf or blossom, never while really thinking that they can be found?

[Kath]

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Well otherwise you'd have some very boring discussions. If everyone agreed with each other you'd have a thread that went like this:

"Don't you think the way PJ altered Gimli's character was brilliant?"
"Yeah."
"Oh absolutely."
"For sure!"

And yes of course that's an exaggeration but still, it would be far less interesting than when you get people with completely opposing points of view trying to get their opinions across. Sometimes that can get a little rowdy as we have seen before. Sometimes because it is admittedly fun to throw out a comment you know will make someone else explode, but mostly just because people are so impassioned about a particular point.

You compare the situation to that of getting involved in video game discussions when you have no interest in video games, but that's not an accurate analogy. Fans of the books have a vested interest in the films because if they were good there would be another medium the story was presented in for them to enjoy. They are interested to see how the story has been translated across media and then they are interested in they whys and hows of why that translation did or did not work.

[Meriadoc1961]

Sauron,

I have said this before, and I will say it again, I am a fan of the movies. I own all three of them, and I look forward to seeing The Hobbit once it gets released. But I was a fan of Tolkien and the books long before the movies were made. My gripe has always been and always will be with the tampering of the characters that were created by Tolkien that was committed by Jackson and crew. None of it was necessary. I have no doubt in my mind that had they remained true to the characters that they would not have lost one single audience member or award. In fact, I know of some book fans that did NOT go and see the second and third movies BECAUSE of the change in character they saw in the first installment, so there is at least anecdotal evidence that they actually lost some viewers by not sticking to the characters as envisioned by Tolkien. And lest we forget, it was BECAUSE of the tremendous support of the fans of the books that got the rest of the world so excited and willing to part with their money and time to see the movies in the first place.

Merry

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In my opinion, the biggest factor is that almost everyone who posts here has both read the books and seen the movies. If one had done only the one or the other, it would be boring to post about it, as there would be no comparison.

The other reason is psychological - the level of satisfaction or disappointment with any given event is directly connected to the level of expectation. You see, for the many of us who read the books long before the movies came out, the hype was extremely great - jacked up by the media and those interested in getting us all into the theaters. So expectations ran very high.

If the movies had been only poor, there would have been little to discuss. (After all, you don't see many people posting about the rather subpar animated movies - they are mentioned only very occasionally here.) But there was much that was wonderful about PJ's products, especially visually and as concerns the music. The dichotomy between wonderful aspects and inappropriate changes often shows up with repeated watching for some people; others are disappointed with the changes at first, then get used to some.

At any rate, anyone here at the Downs is welcome to discuss both movies and books positively or negatively - or both all mixed up. If we all had the same opinion, it would be boring! Two things are important in our discussions - give good reasons for your opinion, then you may encourage those who think differently to think more deeply. But if they stick to their own opinion, let it go. We are all here for fun - don't take yourself too seriously.

After all, we are not in an army - all of you Johnnies and Janes can march any way you want to! Just don't try to trip the others...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

(After all, you don't see many people posting about the rather subpar animated movies - they are mentioned only very occasionally here.)

Don't get me started...

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Well...I'd say that Johnny's mother was quite wrong. If she really loved her Johnny, she'd be willing to see his faults and exhort him to do better next time. She'd criticize him, not out of spite or venom, but out of her love for him, and her steadfast belief in his true potential.

Not sure that I agree. My kids eventually will conform to the world; one day, the clothes that they wear to school will become super-important, and Dad will be embarrassing them when he steps out to get the paper in shorts and long black socks.

Conformity. Sure, when you're in the band, your job is to march to the beat. But when you're not 'on the job,' hopefully you feel free enough choose your own steps. "Me too," is boring.

Another point: My feelings regarding the movies haven't changed since I've watched the EE DVDs the second time. With all of my quibbling and nitpicking, I like them no more or less, regardless of the number of faults that I find with PJ's works.

[Gwathagor]

Whoa...I'm not preaching slavish conformity to the world. Not by a long shot. No sir.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I wonder if any film or set of films could stand up to that sort of examination for that length of time in that sort of detail under those conditions?

I mention this because it often strikes me as a very unusual dynamic that exists here. It is obvious beyond debate that the LOTR films were wildly successful in terms of making money, professional critical reviews and industry awards. It looks like some 500 million people truly enjoyed those films. And that does not even count the DVD sales or those who did not buy but have seen them either on TV or through others copies. But the opinion of the public, the opinion of the critics, the opinion of industry professionals as expressed in awards of excellence,
... all that combined seems to not even make a dent in the collective opinion of the Purist community. In fact, when I or others bring up these facts, they are treated like so much flotsam and jetsam. Its like "the world can go to blazes for all I care and I do not care one iota if almost everyone stands against me".

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. No problem there.

But this situation brings up the old story about the proud mother who went to see her son playing in the marching band in a holiday parade. As the band came by, her son was the sole member marching out of step with every single other member of the band. A few people around here noticed and commented on it. But before they could say a word to her, she puffed out her proud chest and remarked loudly "everyone is out of step but my Johnny".

Do you think she was correct?

Well...I'd say that Johnny's mother was quite wrong. If she really loved her Johnny, she'd be willing to see his faults and exhort him to do better next time. She'd criticize him, not out of spite or venom, but out of her love for him, and her steadfast belief in his true potential.

I find fault with the movies because I love them. And because I can't hurt their feelings (if only because movies don't HAVE feelings).