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01-16-2008, 10:09 AM | #1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
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The Witch King....shall rise again!?!
It is commonly believed that the Witch King of Angmar was killed in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the other Nazgul later on when the One Ring was destroyed. So I thought.
But lo! Behold! This paragaraph seems to indicate otherwise. Quote:
Last edited by zxcvbn; 02-23-2008 at 01:07 AM. |
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01-16-2008, 10:21 AM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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That's a thing I believe most people must have noticed when they read the passage you quote. Personally, I thought along the lines you say in your post when first reading it: specially mentioning that not in this age of the world would imply that later it was heard; and knowing the scheme of "Dark Lords of descending power" (Morgoth is defeated and his most powerful servant Sauron is the new Dark Lord, so Sauron is defeated and his most powerful servant WK is the new Dark Lord?) I came to a conclusion that in the course of Arda, it will make sense. However, there are several counterarguments: First, Tolkien says that the Fourth Age and the ages later are only in the dominion of Men and that there will no longer be "mythic", "magical", or "supernatural", or how should I call that, enemies for them (I believe it is somewhere in the Letters - if anyone can provide the quotation, it will be helpful). Consequently, I thought about Dagor Dagorath - in such a moment as the last battle at the end of times, all the requirements would be met (it is another age, and all the enemies return). That's, in my opinion, the occassion to which we can with clean conscience place the event when we hear the WK's cry again.
Another thing speaking against the return of WK without any Sauron to be his superior is the fact that as a Nazgul, he was totally subdued to the One Ring and when it was destroyed, his own Ring lost all its power, and therefore, his spirit departed, having no longer a mortal body nor any will binding him to this world.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-16-2008, 10:47 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
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"and was never heard again in that age of this world."
If "that age" refered to the Third Age then it would have been written as "Age", not "age". Tolkien would have been fussy about details like that. . |
01-16-2008, 11:15 AM | #4 | ||||||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
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Quote:
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Also, Quote:
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01-16-2008, 11:57 AM | #5 | |
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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After the destroying of the Ring, Sauron became too weak to take a visible form. I'm not sure if the Nazgūl really died or if their rings had granted them a kind of immortality, an eternal life as a spirit bound to Middle-earth, but if Sauron was depraved of his powers, I very highly doubt that any of the Nazgūls were able to return. After all, their power was nothing but Sauron's power.
However, there's one thing in the Quenta Noldorinwa that popped into my mind: Quote:
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01-16-2008, 12:07 PM | #6 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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1. He was not dead, he was "reduced to impotence" (some letter).
2. So what if he was reduced to impotence? Tśrin was dead and still we learn that he will eventually kill Melkor. 3. I still wouldn't make a big deal of this Dagor Dagorath thing. It is nice and everything, but, and this is important to mention in my opinion it is very, very uncertain. I have discussed on this topic with other people on other forums and will come back with a thread on it specifically shortly (tro brush up my knowledge), but, as far as I am aware towards the end of his life Tolkien started transferring many elements from the Dagor Dagorath to the battle that ended the War of Wrath. It is thus seemingly unclear whether he was planning to leave the Dagor Dagorath as a part of the whole story or if there wasn't going to be any.
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01-17-2008, 03:08 AM | #7 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
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Quote:
But Tolkien kept changing his mind on many things. That's why he wrote 'the New Shadow' which featured a new Dark Lord rising just 100 years after LOTR. So we should atleast consider it a possibility. Quote:
If they were destroyed it isn't necessary that the NAzgul were also utterly destroyed. As for free will, the Nazgul had it. Remember all the works of evil they did in Sauron's abscence?(Angmar, the Great Plague, Minas Morgul, running things in Mordor, sending emissaries to stir up trouble along Gondor's borders etc.) |
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01-17-2008, 06:08 AM | #8 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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But that was not their will, but Sauron's. How should I describe it. As long as they were Ringwraith, and Sauron was alive - no matter that he was reduced to almost nothing, but he was there, since only at the moment he started to gain shape, the Nine started to rise as well - they had no free will of their own. Let's say the Nśmenorean nobleman XY was very greedy, but he would never kill anyone, also because he, for example, was sick when seeing blood. Now some Sauron gave him a Ring, he became the Witch-King, and became Sauron's slave - at the moment he "faded", i.e. became a Wraith, he lost all his free will. That means, he would no longer object to kill anyone if it was in accord to Sauron's will, nor he would be sick when seeing blood. My idea on how this worked (but only my idea, this way I see it and I'm presenting it here just as illustration, you don't have to adapt it) is that Sauron was in fact "present" (careful, don't misinterpretate this, I know it's somewhat hard to grasp this) in all the Ringwraith's minds, not in the meaning that a part of him will be inside so he will have a direct "link" with the RW or "remote control" them, but in the meaning that they had some goals set up in their minds that came from the Will of Sauron and these were superior to everything else. The Ringwraith kept some of their original skills, I don't know, let's say one of them was a good warrior, another could track, another had a large knowledge of history and so on, they kept all of this, and they were of course independant in making their choices when they were apart from Sauron, like whether to go left or right and whether to set an ambush against Frodo or whether to chase him. But above all their conscious and subconscious ideas, above all their instincts and reason, there was the will of Sauron like a "parasite program" that just kept them in line not to make anything against Sauron's will. The WK could not have suddenly said "And you know what, Glorfindel, my friend, I am going to repent, join you and overthrow Sauron", because even if he chose to, Sauron's will would block this option for him: error, you cannot access the file "repent". Password locked by the user: Sauron. That's what I meant, and I believe, most of the Tolkien readers are familiar with this.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-17-2008, 06:24 AM | #9 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
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And when Sauron was destroyed, so was that 'parasite program'! See! Now the Nazgul can do whatever they want! That just proves my point!
And one can also put up the argument that Sauron was not really destroyed, but merely 'reduced to impotence' as a 'spirit of malice'. So from this argument, he could still control the Nazgul in the fashion mentioned above, and say, command them to take shape again to do his will. |
01-17-2008, 06:29 AM | #10 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-17-2008, 07:17 PM | #11 | |
Shade with a Blade
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Quote:
Might: Thanks so much for the quotes! I had forgotten.
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