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12-26-2007, 05:11 PM | #1 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Causality, fatalism or pure chance? LotR and Matrix revisited
In Matrix the matrix was governed by causality, causes and effects as the Merovingian (or whatever his name was) stated. But that system included bogies which brought a random element into it. The "real life" in these films was governed by fatalism. Certain things just had to happen and there were prophecies that were to be fullfiled - and there was no room for chance.
How about Tolkien's world, the LotR especially? Is Tolkien's world fatalistic so that everything that happened had to happen or were there actual choices by certain individuals? Or where there random elements that made the outcome? Could someone in the LotR had chosen differently and had that changed the outcome or was it all fixed already in the beginning?
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01-04-2008, 11:15 PM | #2 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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There was choice all over the place in LotR.
That was even true in Matrix. There may have been a veneer of determinism, but it could be interrupted; otherwise there would have been no suspense in the movie. |
01-05-2008, 03:53 AM | #3 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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The one passage in LotR that occurs to me most strongly when choice and free will are discussed is in "The Breaking of the Fellowship". Frodo is upon Amon Hen, and two powers are attempting to influence him.
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As to the Divine influence, Tolkien adheres to the standpoint that pre-knowledge is not the same as pre-determination. The former allows for individual choice. The latter could be interpreted as a Divine plan of the outcome, though an individual could possibly choose not to participate in that plan. (We've discussed such issues as alternate Ringbearers - and indeed Sam did continue when it looked like Frodo could not. And his choice, though he afterwards thought it was wrong, was the right one in that situation!) Enough worms for now - for a deeper discussion, the terms used would have to be clearly defined. PS - Interestingly, my current signature (a Dumbledore quote from Rowling's Harry Potter books) corresponds with this question: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 01-05-2008 at 03:57 AM. |
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01-05-2008, 06:05 AM | #4 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Tolkien's cosmology works perfectly coherently within its own rules.
If you take a cyber analogy, you have an intelligent scientist who creates nano-bots one day. He creates them to have intelligence and choices, just like him. He decides how they are made and programmed but they are able to develop what he has given them - thus they are sentient nano-bots and have free-will. But remember the scientist was the one who chose what formulae are programmed in, he is omnipotent. The nano-bots create a programme of an environment to live in, it even includes some glitches which one nano-bot has developed with the ability to alter the formulae it was given. The scientist creates the environment, despite the glitches (for reasons only known to him, but knowing techno-nerds, just for the sake of it being 'interesting' ) and also creates more nano-bots, v 2.0 and v 2.1. All the nano-bots go forth and multiply (so to speak ). They do all kinds of stuff, some of which the scientist might never have imagined, as he has given them the mathematical possibility of altering their programmes but at root, they were all programmed by him so he put the possibilities there and he retains the power to remove the batteries at any time. Now the only way this would all fail is if one of the nano-bots did something that was mathematically impossible with what the scientist had programmed in. In that case we'd have to wonder if, on his tea break, the scientist's dad had sneaked in and tried to play the Sims on the PC and somehow messed up the programme...
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01-05-2008, 07:59 AM | #5 | ||||||||
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
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Okay...
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But did he know what exactly was going to happen or as the Architect in the Matrix was sure that something was going to happen. The Architect was certain that the desire to save the human race would be stronger then Neo's love for Trinity and he was wrong. Did Eru think the same way and think that Frodo's desire to save m-e would be stronger then his own greed caused by the Ring? What if he was wrong? What if Frodo did claim the Ring somewhere else. Would a hand then come out of the sky, pick him up and throw him in Orodruin? Would he give Eonwe a call and tell him it's 'bout that time again? Or would he let the people of M-e to their fate? I find this quote quite interesting from Professor Tom Shippey: Quote:
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And so comes his intervention: Quote:
Again, Eru does the same thing with Gandalf. After the Valar's plan to overthrow Sauron by sending the wizards fails Eru repays Gandalf for his sacrifice and sends him back to finish the job. Quote:
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Isn't it somehow cheating that in M-e Eru pops up time and again and does some fine-tuning? One could of course now argue that such fine-tuning takes place in our world as well, only that most don't see it or don't believe it happens. But that is another story and so I think we should stick to M-e for now.
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01-05-2008, 10:26 AM | #6 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Not sure this works, but what seems to be getting said by Tolkien in that "cheating" quote is that eucatastrophe = cheating; which means that it's not really cheating. Do Muslims think that Gabriel coming to Muhammad was "cheating"? Do Christians think that Jesus rising from the grave was "cheating"? Do Jews think that Yahweh providing the ram at the last moment when Abraham was about to kill Isaac, was "cheating"? If so, then myth and real life is full of divine "cheating".
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