Feanor Self-Important?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I searched, and found no topics where my question was answered, although I may have over-looked something.

In Chapter 9 (Of the Flight of the Noldor) of the Silm, Feanor "cries bitterly" the following:

"...It may be that I can unlock my
jewels, but never again shall I make
their like; and if I must break them,
I shall break my heart, and I shall
be slain;first of all the Eldar in
Aman"

I am thoroughly confused as to precisely what Feanor means by the statement 'first'. To me, he could mean a number of things, two of which being:

1) that he would be the first to be slain
2) that he considers himself to be the first (best/highest) of the Eldar in Aman

And then Mandos says "Not the first." which could be him pointing out that he's not the first in Aman to die, or Mandos pointing out that Feanor is not the first of the Eldar.

I beg of you all, help me! I hate being confused and reading the Silm for the first time has got me a little messed up.

Fea

[Cuthalion]

Greetings, Feanor...

It would seem to me that Mandos is saying "Not the first." because Feanor's father Finwe had just been slain, making HIM the first among the Eldar to die. And I would think it a vast understatement to say that Feanor found himself and anything he had created, to be the most important thing on the face of the planet.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Actually, Miriel Serinde died before Finwe did... but she wasn't really slain, was she... and it would make sense that Mandos would be not understood when he said "not the first" because nobody else would yet know that Finwe had been killed... hmm...

[Cuthalion]

Correct. To be to be perfectly technical Finwe was the first slain. Feanor did not as yet know this.

[StarJewel]

Could Feanor also have meant that he would be the first to be slain by the means of a broken heart? He put his heart and soul into those jewels.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Possibly... But does slain apply to heart attacks?
Anyway, saying that Feanor is self-important is like saying "Luthien is pretty"; an understatement to end all understatements.
Feanor's ego was as big as Anduin was long.
But he's still one of my favourite characters [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

But Feanor can be forgiven for his egotism because it is understandable.

(page 63 of the Silm) "...the eldest of
the sons of Finwe, and the most beloved."

All of the people that I have ever met that were the favorites of their parents have been insufferable. They act as if they hung the moon, because they grew up with their parents acting as though they had. It is a learned behavior and although highly annoying, it is understandable.

(page 98 of the Silm) "And they mourned
not more for the death of the Trees than
for the marring of Feanor: of the works
of Melkor one of the most evil.
B]For Feanor was made the mightiest
in all parts of body and mind, in valour,
in endurance, in beauty, in understanding,
in skill, in strength and in subtlety
alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar..."[/B]

This in itself is the biggest source of Feanor's self image: even the Valar admitted that Feanor was pretty much the best of all Children! Growing up and learning that one would affect anyone, whether they were actively arrogant or not. Just try and tell me that the knowledge that you were created better than everyone else wouldn't affect how you act!

Cheers
Fea

[ June 29, 2003: Message edited by: Feanor of the Peredhil ]

[Gorthol]

And I would think it a vast understatement to say that Feanor found himself and anything he had created, to be the most important thing on the face of the planet.

He did? What about the part in Silmarillion where it says (I could try and translate it from my Swedish version:

"And then Fëanor hastened away from Máhanaxar and fled through the night; for his father was more dear to him than both the Lights of Valinor and all the complete works of his own.."

So it seems that his love for his father was greater than the love he had for himself or the Silmarills.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Of course he has the full right to be as arrogant as he wants to be. Especially if he's allowed to get away with it.

[Gorthol]

Of course he has the full right to be as arrogant as he wants to be. Especially if he's allowed to get away with it.

Isn't it more so, that he was formed through his own greatness? Just like "Feanor of the Peredhil" explains..

[Finwe]

The way that Finwë spoiled Fëanor gives us all a pretty good reason as to why he was so arrogant and self-obsessed (other than his relationship with his father). Most only children that I've met, especially those who have lost their mothers very young, are absolute asses. Especially the boys. Fëanor knew he was his father's heir, and thus, was incredibly spoiled by just about everyone. I'm sure that a lot of people felt sorry for him since Miriel was dead, and he probably grew up as everyone's pet, and being able to order everyone around. Once Indis came along however, things changed remarkably. In an instant (well, more like a few decades), the once only-child-and-heir got a stepmother and two half-brothers. I don't think he took that well, and he probably kept wanting to prove to everyone that no matter what "the Sons of Indis" did, he would always be the best. A drive like that can often overpower common sense.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I agree. One of the most powerful things that drives me is wanting to prove that I'm capable of doing anything that my brothers can do, and that I can do it better. It's not always true, but it's a strong force.

With Curufinwe's "Fiery Spirit", he was tenacious enough to follow through with everything he did. I imagine that being capable of completing everything he started, not to mention doing it well, would give him an even higher ego-boost...

Fea

[Finwe]

That's true. Of course, the fact that he was also the most renowned jewel-smith of the Noldor and one of the most handsome Elves in Aman must have also gone to his head.

[Cuthalion]

But is that a good thing?

"For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman,great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife."

Seems pretty dang self-centered to me. I would be hard-pressed to find another character of Tolkien's with that kind of chutzpah. He is the father of over-achievers everywhere. And don't let's even start about the Oath...His defiance of Manwe left me open-mouthed the first time I read it.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Cuthalion ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

His defiance of Manwe left me open-mouthed the first time I read it

What part of defiance do you mean? The refusal of the Silmarils to Yavanna? Or urging the Noldor to rebell?
Even though he shouldn't have refused Yavanna, he actually had a right to. Also, leading the Noldor was not a crime, because they had a right to leave any time they wanted and he had the right to pursue.
The only crime he actually commited is the Kinslaying.
Feanor was very brave, very self-centered and very illogical. I think we all can agree to that.

PS What if he hadn't refused the Silmarils, and the Two Trees would have been renewed? No sun or moon for Middle Earth, no light for Men.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman,great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife."

Seems pretty dang self-centered to me.

Not really- ever heard the saying 'if you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself'? I imagine he probably saw other people's work as sub-par to his own and preferred to do his own work and get it right than to have to stand over a colleague and make sure that said colleague was working to his standards.

Fea

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Not really- ever heard the saying 'if you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself'? I imagine he probably saw other people's work as sub-par to his own and preferred to do his own work and get it right than to have to stand over a colleague and make sure that said colleague was working to his standards.

Or he simply disliked working with others. I know that when I am working on something, it seems to be easier to get it done alone than when working with someone else. Also, things done with a partner never turn out quite the same way as the original conceptor (if that is a word) plans. Having two minds working on something always changes the project. Ex. My friend makes and designs clothing and costumes. When the two of us collaborate, the style is immensely different than hers alone. (I hope I'm making sense here)

[Lord of Angmar]

Feanor was self-centered in that he knew that he was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar. If you knew this, would you really want help from any lesser beings? If he is the greatest craftsmen of all of the Children of Illuvatar, then by default anything that he collaborates with someone else with, no matter who it is, will be worse than if he had made it himself. The only exception to this is when he is learning new things (i.e. learning of Melkor the forgery of weaposn, etc.).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Or he simply disliked working with others

Excellent point. I for one can't stand working with people when I can do something on my own. I enjoy working in the vicinity of others, but not on the same things.

[Gorthol]

Feanor was self-centered in that he knew that he was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar. If you knew this, would you really want help from any lesser beings? If he is the greatest craftsmen of all of the Children of Illuvatar, then by default anything that he collaborates with someone else with, no matter who it is, will be worse than if he had made it himself. The only exception to this is when he is learning new things (i.e. learning of Melkor the forgery of weaposn, etc.)

Excellent post, dead on! Fëanor was unequaled; and hence he became what he became..

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Finwe]

I think that with great power comes a great ability to be illogical. Almost all great, gifted people are extremely illogical, because they believe themselves above the rules and standards of their "paltry contemporaries." I think that is why Fëanor seems to be so illogical.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Maybe Feanor knew something that we didn't (more than the obvious, of course) and what is illogical to us made perfect sense to him. (Before Finwe was killed and he went nuts, I mean).

[the phantom]

Maybe Feanor knew something that we didn't (more than the obvious, of course) and what is illogical to us made perfect sense to him.

That's what I've always thought. I've always thought that most of Feanor's actions are a result of him being so in tune with the big picture- the will of Eru. I'll explain.

When Feanor drew his sword on Fingolfin, that was actually a very good thing. Up until then, Melkor had been sowing his seeds of evil in the dark, but Feanor's breaking of the peace was directly responsible for the uncovering of Melkor's corrupt influence. Feanor was sort of a barometer that could be used to tell what wasn't right with things. If he did something that others considered wrong, it was usually a result of some other problem that had to be fixed (but if it wasn't getting fixed, then Feanor fixed it in his own way).

This is shown again when he rebels against the Valar. Remember, Ulmo never thought it was even a good idea to bring elves to Valinor. He thought they should stay in Middle Earth. Feanor's discontent can be seen as a result of the Valar unwisely bringing the elves over the sea.

Also, there's another thread where we came to the conclusion that the best way to defeat Melkor was to get him to spend himself over a long period of time so he would be weakened and less damage would be done to the earth when he was finally taken down. As we can see, that's exactly what happened. The Noldor went and started a war against him that kept him occupied for hundreds of years and then the Valar came and got him.

But if this was truly the best way to do things, then weren't the Noldor supposed to leave Valinor? At the same time, the Valar did not feel compelled to rush off to war. That's because it was Eru's will that they wait, but they incorrectly assumed that the "wait" command was for everyone, when in fact the Noldor's destiny was to go and begin the weakening of Melkor.

So they counseled against it, and assumed that their logic was infallible (when, in fact, the Valar are not perfect, and the Sil says that they were supposed to be elders among the elves as opposed to masters). Just because the Valar command something or want something doesn't make it right.

Here's a quote from another thread that states that it was the will of Eru that the Noldor go after Melkor.

The Vanyar found their contentment and satisfaction at the feet of the Valar, where as the Noldor found theirs in learning and delving into new things. This is a huge difference in character, and was not the choice of the Noldor and Vanyar, but the nature that was given to them by Eru.

Now, this difference is why the Noldor were corrupted. Melkor couldn't corrupt the Vanyar, because they were satisfied serving the Valar. He didn't have anything to tempt them with. But, the Noldor existed to create and pursue knowledge, two things that Melkor could help them with considerably.

They were created in such a way that the precise thing they loved would be the exact thing that Melkor could offer.

Why would this situation be allowed to happen? Because the rebellion of the Noldor was supposed to happen. It had to happen.

Not only were they "playing their part", but the nature in which they were created would have hardly allowed for anything else.

and then this in a later post-

The Teleri and the Valar shouldn't have hindered the Noldor. They (Valar and Teleri) weren't seeing clearly the will of Eru. They're not completely to blame, because it's very hard to see the big picture on such short notice, but the fact remains that the Noldor HAD to get to middle earth to contest Melkor's domination.

Yes, that's right. That last quote just said that the Noldor's rebellion was more in tune with Eru's plan than the resistance of the Valar and Teleri. The Teleri put complete and 100% trust and faith in the Valar, and Olwe in his words with Feanor believed staunchly that everything would be all hunky-dory again because the Valar would fix things. I think it's detestable that free peoples would completely subjugate themselves and put 100% trust in beings that are not perfect. Eru didn't create his children to obey every wish that other people made and never think or act themselves without getting approval.

Not only do the circumstances under which the Noldor were led to rebel point to it being the will of Eru, but their rebellion led to the enrichment of the world and better life for other elves and men of Middle-Earth. Feanor's heart knew what the big picture would be, and he was just following the will or Eru. I'll leave you with another quote from that other thread-

Where I (and possibly lord of dor-lomin) am coming from is what I like to call "the fate school". That essentially means that every person and/or group has a certain deed to do or goal to attain, and that things that are usually "wrong" are justifiable if they appear necessary to complete the task that Eru has put into their heart.

that other thread can be found here-> http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...24&t=000038&p=

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Funny- I was just reading the other thread and I noticed something: they are bashing Feanor like mad.

Why do you believe it was Fëanor's place to decide when to punish Melkor?

It may not necessarily have been his 'place', but should anyone just stay home and be good when their life is being torn apart by a single entity? And was it Melkor's 'right' to corrupt the world? Is that anyone's 'right'?

You're right, I would definitely slaughter my buddy and his family and take what I wanted from him.

You forget that he wasn't in his right mind. Keep in mind that he had just lost three of the most important things in his life:
1) The Light of the Trees. He was in shock and mourning at this loss. And then:
2) He got the news that the being who had just destroyed the Light had slain his father, who he held more dear than anything, including his silmarils. And then:
3) He was informed that above said being had stolen his most prized possessions, that he concieved, created, and cherished more than life itself.
Needless to say, he went nuts, and can you really condemn an insane man for his actions?

well how about offering something for the return of the Silmarill

Ooh- this I love. Let us dissect this a little:

Here is this guy, your mortal enemy, who has just been let out of prison, and he starts to corrupt the rest of the world. That's not enough, so he decides to rid the world of light. So your mourning the loss of the most beautiful creations on Earth, and your mortal enemy shows up at your house, kills your dad, and then steals your possessions, including your most cherished ones. Should the victim pay the theif to return the pilfered items? I think not.

Anything! Sorry, the kinslayings, over an OBJECT is pitiful.

It is pitiful, or at least pitiable. Feanor was not in his right mind when he went chasing after the Silms, so his actions are understandable, if not excusable, but the Teleri fought over ships! Honestly, what's worse, killing because you swore an oath to retrieve your possessions, or killing because someone wants to borrow your boats. Seriously: the Kinslaying was stupid. Both sides killed over objects, but you don't see anyone bashing the Teleri!

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just so long as they don't push it on others. Just remember that my opinions are my own and that you don't have to agree with me, although it would be nice.

Fea

[the phantom]

I was just reading the other thread and I noticed something: they are bashing Feanor like mad.

People always bash Feanor and the Noldor. Note the second to the last post in that other thread that I made explaining why people do it. It's pretty sad.

And I, for one, would almost excuse the kinslaying. Remember, not only did the Teleri refuse to give them a lift, but they wouldn't even help them build their own boats. Why did the Teleri do this? Because they were blindly following the wishes of the Valar as if they were perfect beings. "The Valar don't approve of you going, so we're going to refuse to do anything to help you."

And also, Feanor deemed the ice of the north impassible, so as far as he knew, the ONLY WAY to fulfill his destiny was to use ships to get across, and the Teleri wouldn't so much as lift a paddle. So Feanor, seeing no other way, took matters into his own hands and started manning the ships. The Teleri responded by throwing some of the Noldor into the sea and an all out fight resulted.

I would put more blame on the Valar (and the Teleri for blindly following them) for their interference with the fate of the Noldor.

Maybe this opinion seems radical to you people, but my opinion is partly a result of all the people I've seen who literally hate the Noldor and Feanor and are completely stuck in their ways. I feel that someone just as radical needs to oppose them, and defend the Noldor (and particularly Feanor) at all costs. If you don't want to see me post stuff like this, then stop Noldor & Feanor bashing.

(actually, this thread has been fairly good about not doing that thus far, I'm impressed)

[The Saucepan Man]

Whatever may be said about the Kinslaying (and I agree with many of the points that you have made, Fea and Phantom), surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the host of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman. Unhinged or not, there is simply no excuse for this. Afflicted by the Doom of Mandos which Feanor's own actions had brought about, they could not return to Valinor and so had to endure the unutterable hardship of the Helcaraxe.

Of all Feanor's acts, this is the one that condemns him most in my mind.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

I personally believe that both the Noldor and the Teleri are responsible for the kinslaying. The Noldor, for losing their tempers and starting to steal the ships and kill people.
The Teleri, for blindly trusting the Valar who never cared for much except their precious Valinor.

To Phantom: Wow! I fully agree with you!

Anyway, like I said in my previous reply, if Feanor would not have done what he did, it could well mean no light for Middle Earth and no one to teach the Edain.

, surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the hosts of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman

Yep! Even worse than the Kinslaying. Feanor blindy panicked which led to the anger between the houses.

[Lord of Angmar]

The Kinslaying, while pitiable, was not excusable, and the Teleri were not equally to blame as was suggested in an earlier post; they were merely defending their works. And, while it can be argued that Feanor was doing the same, it was he that initiated the killing and he who was in the wrong to even request the ships, so the Teleri in my mind hold none of the blame. Feanor was not in his right mind, surely, he was fey and wild with ideas of glory and conquest in Middle Earth, but he wrought for himself this insanity and he was too blame for the actions that ensued.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the host of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman

Not necessarily the most reprehensible, but very high on the list. It wasn't necessarily Feanor's leaving though, it was the fact that Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons followed that got to me. The fact that Feanor was so whacked out by then that he couldn't recognize the love and loyalty (or at least will to fulfil the quest) of his own kin... It's sad.

Fea

[the phantom]

and he who was in the wrong to even request the ships

He didn't just request the ships. As can be inferred by Olwe's answer to Feanor, Feanor obviously suggested that the Teleri merely give them a ride (in other words control of the boats remains with the Teleri the entire time) or that they help the Noldor or teach them to build ships of their own. After the Noldor had built the Teleri's city for them, it seems like a small request for the Noldor to ask assistance or guidance in a labor that they would complete themselves.

So Feanor gave the Teleri several other options besides letting the Noldor borrow the boats.

it was he that initiated the killing

Was it? He began manning the ships and the Teleri resisted with violence and then a fight broke out. Perhaps one of the Teleri was the first to slay another elf. But if you want to say the Teleri had to fight because Feanor was taking their ships, then we can play the cause and effect chain all day. Feanor had to take the ships because he was chasing after Morgoth. He was chasing Morgoth because Morgoth killed his father (the king of the Noldor) and stole his belongings. Morgoth was able to do this because the Valar let him out of prison. So where does the blame stop. If we follow the chain back, then it's all the Valar's fault (as Feanor seemed to believe, perhaps it really was a fruit of the Valar incorrectly bringing the elves to Valinor and allowing Melkor the weasel to roam free).

and he was too blame for the actions that ensued

The events are too complicated to state without a shadow of a doubt that these things can all be blamed on one single person (especially when there's the possibility that this person was attempting to accomplish the deed that Eru had purposed for him and put into his heart).

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Well, I can see your point, but there was another reason that the Teleri resisted, and that is because aiding the Noldor would have been going directly against the will of the Valar. Furthermore, Feanor's plan was not to have the Teleri taxi them to Middle-Earth but the borrow the ships, which he almost certainly would never have returned. Olwe certainly foresaw that his ships would not return to him. Of the ships that Feanor did end up stealing many were lost at sea.

Also, Feanor was the first one roused to wrath, and why should not the Teleri defend their ships if he attempts to steal them by force?

The Teleri giving the ships to the Noldor would have been against the will of the Valar and would also have cost them their greatest works, which they should not have felt obligated to give to the Noldor, whose parting they obviously knew was folly. Since Feanor attempted to steal the ships, his actions directly resulted in the Kinslaying and he was responsible for the battle at Alqualonde.

[Lord of Angmar]

especially when there's the possibility that this person was attempting to accomplish the deed that Eru had purposed for him and put into his heart

Feanor should have known quite well that Eru would not put a purpose into his heart that conflicted so greatly with Manwe, who "in all things [has] served most faithfully the purpose of Illuvatar" (Ainulindale, 2nd Ed., 9).

[Finwe]

Lord of Angmar, the reason that many of the ships were lost at sea, is because Ossë became enraged at the slaughter of the Elves that he had loved so much, and all the sea erupted in storms. Ossë wanted to get back at Feanor and his followers for the Kinslaying, that was why many of the ships were lost at sea. Of course, it could also be that the Noldor were really horrible sailors, and couldn't sail tubs worth their lives.

I think that if we keep discussing who's to blame for the Kinslaying, this discussion will get nowhere. Both Olwë and Fëanor are to blame, and so is Fingon, in a part. Olwë was wrong in immediately shutting out Fëanor, and condemning him for rebelling against the Valar. Olwë was being a mindless follower, and not completely listening to Fëanor. Fëanor, on the other hand, assumed that he was in the right, and also assumed that Olwë would let him take the ships. Once the fighting broke out initially, Fingolfin's men came upon the scene, led by Fingon. The latter assumed that Olwë's men were attacking the Noldor, and threw his men into the fray, against the Teleri. What happened after that is common knowledge. The Noldor won the fight.

I think that the biggest mistake that everyone made was making assumptions. That is what led to the Kinslaying.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that brings closure to that debate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think the Valar are also somewhat to blame. They knew Feanor could not get far, and they knew that the Teleri were the only ones with ships. Given Feanor's obviously fey and wrathful mood, what did they think, that the Noldor would just stay trapped in Aman if they couldn't find any way to leave?

[Finwe]

I think the same. The Valar were partly to blame because they didn't take into account the indomitable spirits of the Noldor. They thought that all of the Elves would be as happy as the Vanyar, in serving the Valar and being in Valinor, singing and dancing all day. Apparently, not all Elves are nancy Vanyar! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

Feanor's plan was not to have the Teleri taxi them to Middle-Earth but the borrow the ships

Nope. This is from The Silmarillion-

but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar

Feanor offered those other options.

which he almost certainly would never have returned

I wouldn't assume that he would steal the ships if they willingly helped him. And if they would've helped him build ships then they would be his to keep.

Fëanor, on the other hand, assumed that he was in the right

Has anyone ever thought for a moment that perhaps he was? When he answered the herald of the Valar and ended with "Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!", his voice was so great and potent that the herald bowed before him. Maybe he was right. The Valar did end up following the same road to the same purpose as Feanor, across the sea to fight Morgoth.

what did they think, that the Noldor would just stay trapped in Aman if they couldn't find any way to leave?

They didn't know what to think. The Valar were in a new situation, they were faced with a great being that was adamantly refusing their advice and insisting that he was correct and determined to follow his own path.

Do you think that there was some pride involved on the Valar's part? (remember, they're free beings completely subject to mistakes and incorrect feelings, thoughts, and actions) Perhaps they were being slapped with the reality that they weren't rulers, they weren't perfect in their judgment, and that a mere elf could hold more sway over people's hearts than they could.

I take Feanor's statement "In the end they shall follow me" at face value. I think that the Valar eventually realized their mistake of hindering the Noldor's destiny (and having too large an influence over the Teleri, resulting in their blind refusal to so much as help the Noldor).

I think the ridiculous amount of influence the Valar had over the Teleri is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole debate. It was like a dictatorship or something. "The Valar wish this, so I'll completely treat their wish like an all out command and assume that the Valar are perfect. I don't need to think and discern for myself, I'm just a puppet." I think that is so horrible.

Apparently, not all Elves are nancy Vanyar!

Careful. You don't want to tick off the Vanyar lovers so much that they'd post on this thread (because many of them double as Noldor haters).

[StarJewel]

If every elf obeyed the Valar blindly like the Vanyar did, it would meant that there was no free will with the elves. Some of them were bound to start thinking for themselves, for good or bad. The Vanyar, and also the Valar to a degree, were going on a little power trip trying to control every beings actions

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Starjewel, that's rubbish. To wish to merely control everyone is evil, and the Vanyar and the Valar certainly were not that. That was what Melkor had wished to do from the beginning.
The Noldor were not hindered in their departure from Aman. The Elves in Valinor were not kept there by force, but compelled to live there in good faith because it was clearly the wiser choice -- at least from the point of view of the Vanyar and the Valar. The Vanyar were wise, and wished for peace and joy above conquest. They were gentle and wise people, while the Noldor were tougher, more active and willing to endure hardhips -- although of course the Vanyar proved courageous soldiers when it was required of them to rescue Middle-Earth, under the banner of Eonwe. They were peaceful and harmonious Elves, desiring nothing but the bliss of Valinor, and saw no reason why the Noldor should not be too. That was the difference between them. I do not think either was the greater.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I wouldn't assume that he would steal the ships if they willingly helped him. And if they would've helped him build ships then they would be his to keep.

Tell me, who of the Noldor would have sailed the ships back to the Teleri after they had reached Middle Earth? How would Feanor have returned them?

[the phantom]

Tell me, who of the Noldor would have sailed the ships back to the Teleri after they had reached Middle Earth? How would Feanor have returned them?

If they were his ships then he wouldn't have to return them.

Or if they weren't helped to build their own, the Teleri could've ferried the Noldor across and then sailed the ships home themselves. They loved sailing anyway.