Do Elves ride saddle-less on horseback?

[Gollumm]

very curious [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Shadowfax doesn't employ saddles. But Glorfindel's horse uses saddles. So, do Elves ride with saddles in general?

[Nufaciel]

Elvish horses generally don't wear saddles. The elves usually ride bareback. I'm not sure why Glorfindel doesn't.

[Elven-Maiden]

Yep, we elves don't like saddles. I guess Glorfindel knew that Frodo would need his horse, and brought a saddle along.

[Gollumm]

thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Is Shadowfax of the same breed as Asfaloth? I remember that though Shadowfax is a breed of the Valinor, he is born and raised in Rohan. And I suppose the Elves also raise their own horses; are these horses of the same breed as Shadowfax?

[Elanor]

Wouldn't it be a bit smelly to ride without a saddle? I'm sure I remember Galadriel having a nice palfrey to ride on at the end of RotK (it's been a while though, I could be wrong.)

[Aralaithiel]

Oh how I wish the next chapters of my fan fiction would be posted on this site!!!!!!! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] In my story, my character learned horse breeding from the Rohan. She then takes what she's learned and improves the horses. She prefers a saddle, but can ride bareback. Her preferred saddle is a side-saddle. And, she teaches her horses to obey telepathic commands, so she rides WITHOUT a bridle!

I think it depends on the Elf and their riding abilities.

As an aside, I loved Asfaloth in the movie! He's a very nice Andalusian!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[Tar Elenion]

The Noldor in Beleriand also used saddles. Curufin is noted as a strong and cunning horseman as he lifts Luthien to his saddle. A saddle provides a much more secure seat for anyone involved in fighting for horseback. It could be explained that Elves who were contemplating that type of activity would use saddles.

[Aralaithiel]

Thank you, Tar Elenion, for backing me up! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Yes, and you should have seen how I fought on horseback as I defended Lothlorien during the war of the ring! ~That's coming up in a future installment of my fan fiction! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Yes, saddles do come in very handy for battle. Bridles, on the other hand...

[Nilaraniel]

I posted earlier, but apparently it didn't go through.

>>>>>>>Wouldn't it be a bit smelly to ride without a saddle?<<<<<<<

Why would it be smelly? Smelly as is stinky?? I'm confused...
Riding bareback is tons of fun. You get to really feel how the horse moves and become one with him. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Now riding without a bridle is another matter. I'd at least like a hackamore please. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nilaraniel

[Gorin Icearms]

I think Shadowfax won't use a saddle because if he trusts you, he won't let you fall off. As for elves, I think they used saddles regularly. Half the fun of owning a horse is having a great saddle to show off. With all the beautiful things Elves can make, I bet they could make incredible saddles.

Perhaps Legolas didn't like the saddle of the horse he was given. Maybe he wanted to show off his horsemanship. Just a few thoughts.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gorin Icearms ]

no elves definatly didnt ride wiht saddles, the elves didnt produce such wonderful and unique thing s just to "show off" they were masters of thier crafts, but they didnt use saddles. shadowfax wouldnt ride with a saddle because he was wild to anyone but Gandlaf, so a wild horse wouldnt take a saddle anyway. elves rode saddle less.

[Gabo Darvas]

I don't know if elves uses saddles or not. But what about curb-bit? In the movie Arwen used it escaping with Frodo.

Well, she can use it and I only accept curb-bit because of it.

It would be funny an elf with hackamore. And western saddle, western boots... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Nilaraniel]

&%#@! I just posted and it gave me an error message. :-p So I'll try again.

I doubt an Elf would use a curb, if they used anything, it would be a hackamore or have a very light snaffle. And remember, hackamores arn't only western, quite a few English riders use them too, especially while jumping. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

As for the curb in the movie, most people watching don't know one bit from another. Movie people can get away with that kind of stuff. What drove me crazy was when Arwen was asking Asfaloth <sp> to go faster, she wouldn't give him his head. :-p If only I could figure out how to become a stunt rider/stand in person. :-p

Nilaraniel

[Birdland]

(Horse playing Asfolath reading script)

"What's this! Curb bit? My character would NOT wear a curb bit! I cannot work under these conditions! Where's my agent!"

"If anyone wants me, I'll be in my trailer. Bring me an Avian, dahling!" (Horse flounces off)

[Gorin Icearms]

Being a Dwarf, you'd never catch me on a horse. *grumbles* I don't know what Gimli was thinkin', all that horse and Elf nonsense.

[Nilaraniel]

I havn't seen a dwarf on the site yet, Gorin! Yay! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
And hehe Birdland! ;-) I know a horse that would do just that too. ;-)

Nilaraniel

[Ithilwen]

My take is that while the Elves didn't NEED saddles, they probably did use them when riding for long periods. While a competent rider does not need a saddle to stay on the horse, riding bareback can be VERY uncomfortable (especially if the horse has high withers and/or a narrow back). And it's not only the rider who suffers - the weight of the rider pressing down on the relatively small area of his seatbones can give a horse a sore back. A saddle helps avoid this problem by spreading the rider's weight more evenly across the horse's back. And for serious calvary work, stirrups are a necessity, otherwise the impact when the rider hits an object with his sword or lance while moving at speed will push him off the horse.

Oh, and I also laughed when I saw the movie Arwen urging Asfaloth on while simultaneously holding him on a tight rein! You'd think that the Lord of Rivendell could afford to hire a good riding instructor to teach his children!

[Nilaraniel]

Well, I would think the Elves would have nicely padded horses without pokey withers [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]and since they are light footed, they are probably light equitated too. ;-)

I agree that some horses are not fun to ride bareback, but I have been on a few that I never wanted to put a saddle on.
There is this one horse that I ride, Toby, who is grey like Shadowfax and a joy to ride bareback. He has the thickest mane and is rather wide and hard to fall off. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] He's a bit grouchier than Shadowfax though... ;-)

Nilaraniel

[Airetalathwen]

Ah! My favortie horse is named Toby too! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Although, he's not a joy to ride bareback... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Anyway, in very early centuries, all horsemen rode in saddle type things but without stirrups. The big change came when armies fought against the ?Mongols? who had invented the stirrup. They could turn around backward in their saddles and shoot arrows at people while at a full gallop. Their stirrups allowed them to twist and turn and preform all kinds of manuevers that caught all other armies by surprise.

So, I think that Elves would sometimes use saddles at times when they wouldn't know what was going to come along the way, or if they might need the use of stirrups for more stability. But most of the time I am of a mind to think that they still rode bareback.

Horses do not stink. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] They smell wonderful! That's the difference between liking horses, and LOVING horses. I think the other horse lovers here can back me up....i hope..... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I don't have enough time and money right now to train like this yet, but when I own my own horse, this is how i'm going to do it:

Parelli Natural Horse-man-ship

These people are amazing. They ride with nothing on the horse. I've seen a live demonstration in Ohio, USA. It's unbelievable. They ride like the Elves!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And anyone can learn how to do it! I've seen it happen!

Anyway, I too was dissapointed to see all the horses being checked so much during the flight to the ford!! Horse back riding 101: don't give to horse two contradictory commands at the same time. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Wow, this is turning into a long post!

~Airetalathwen

[Orald]

I am sure Tar-Elenion has several quotes to back up his post and normally I would take his word for it, but I remembered reading something in Letters concerning Glorfindel's horse:

 Question 1. I could, I suppose,
answer: 'a trick-cyclist can ride a bicycle
with handle-bars!' But actually bridle was
casually and carelessly used for what I
suppose should have been called a
headstall.1 Or rather, since bit was added
(1221) long ago (Chapter 112 was written
very early) I had not considered the natural
ways of elves with animals. Glorfindel's
horse would have an ornamental headstall,
carrying a plume, and with the straps
studded with jewels and small bells; but
Glor. would certainly not use a bit. I will
change bridle and bit to headstall.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

[Tar Elenion]

What is it you want me to back up?

(This page is very hard to read, with the
posts extending way off to the side.)

[Orald]

Strange, I wonder why it did that.


Any other quotes besides the one from Silmarillion that might proove that Noldor used saddles and bits.

[Mister Underhill]

It was the [ CODE ] tag. I fixed it above.

[Aralaithiel]

Yeah, I was rather perturbed that Arwen didn't give Asfaloth his head. And using that curb bit! Plus, did you other equestrians notice that she didn't keep her heels down! I ride huntseat equitation and that bothers me when they don't keep their heels down and also when they keep their hands up instead of down right above the saddle. Picky, I know!

And no, horses do not stink! I love the smell of horses! I own a Paint mare named Sonny's Baby Jay, Patches is her barn name. She's wonder ful to ride, both with and w/o a saddle.

Now to go to The Silmarillion & see if I can find out about Noldoran Elves and their use of saddle. This Noldoran elf prefers her side-saddle! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Raefindel]

I seem to remember someone asking either Pippin or Merry about Gandalf and Shadowfax and the line is in there, I just couldn't find where... "He rides Elf-fashion"

Anyone remember where that is? I'd hate to have to read the whole trilogy to find it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Raefindel - it's in "The Palantir" in TTT, when Gandalf is riding to Gondor with Pippin as supercargo; Pippin asks him why he is riding bareback, and Gandalf answers "I do not ride Elf-fashion, except on Shadowfax..." and goes on to explain that Shadowfax won't wear a saddle, rather he'll "consent to bear" you and after that it's his business to make sure you stay on, no bridle or saddle needed. So the implication is that Elves didn't generally ride with saddles, though you probably could explain the Glorfindel (or, in the movie, Arwen) thing by saying that he was looking for the travelers and may have brought the saddle out of expecting that Asfaloth may need to give someone a lift. Or possibly "Elf-fashion" could just be an expression, like "English" and "Western" riding styles (sorry equestrians; I know I'm butchering the terminology). All I mean is that riding Elf-fashion could just mean that it developed and is still widely used among the Elves - it wouldn't imply that every Elf rides that way any more than it would imply that every rider in England rides in a certain fashion.

Alas, the only riding experience I've had is when I went to visit a second cousin's farm at the age of four and was given a pony ride. I've sometimes wished I could learn how to really ride, especially considering the kind of stuff I like to read, but here in suburbia it's difficult to know how to get started. OTOH it means I didn't notice anything wrong in the "Noro lim, Asfaloth!" scene - sometimes ignorance is bliss [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Nilaraniel]

I ride huntseat equitation and that bothers me when they don't keep their heels down and also when they keep their hands up instead of down right above the saddle.

I did not notice her heals, but I shall look next time!! I had to laugh about the comment with the hands. ;-) I used to ride hunt seat, then switched the Saddleseat so now my hands are way up high. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But when galloping a horse, my hands tend to go up and to the side of the horses neck so they might have a free head. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
If I were a horse and somebody said Noro lim! to me, then held me back, I'd buck em right off, Elf or no Elf! ;-)
It's good to see so many other serious equestrians (and just plain horse lovers!) on the board. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
My favorite thing to do in the winter is just lay my cheek under one of the horse's manes. It's so warm and soft and smells oh so good! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (sorry getting off topic)

Nila

[Raefindel]

Boy, am I way over my head in this conversation!

Raefindel-"Is that a horse over there?"

Aragorn-"NO STUPID- that's a DOG!!" (hits forehead with hand)

[Airetalathwen]

Did anybody also notice that in the Flight to the Ford scene that there were only eight Ringwraiths chasing Arwen???? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I counted!!!! I hadn't noticed before, until I saw it again for the seventh time. Even at the riverside, there are only eight!!! I mean, heels down is one thing, (most dressage riders almost never ride with their heels down, and hey, we're talkin about Liv Tyler here.... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) but 8 Ringwraiths?? PJ!!!

~Airetalathwen

[Raefindel]

Yes, you're right. I counted too.

[Orald]

This is a books forum used for discussing the books. For those of you discussing the movie, I suggest starting up a thread in the movie forum.

[Tar Elenion]

--------
Quothe Durelen:
Any other quotes besides the one from Silmarillion that might proove that Noldor used saddles and bits.
--------------------

I did not mention 'bits' and have no need to prove the Noldor used them. In Letter 211 JRRT answered this question "Why (in the first edition, I. 221) is Glorfindel's horse described as having a 'bridle and bit' when Elves ride without bit, bridle or saddle?". His answer was: "But actually bridle was casually and carelessly used for what I suppose should have been called a headstall. Or rather, since bit was added (221) long ago (Chapter 12 was written very early) I had not considered the natural ways of elves with animals. Glorfindel's horse would have an ornamental headstall, carrying a plume, and with the straps studded with jewels and small bells; but Glor. would certainly not use a bit. I will change bridle and bit to headstall."
JRRT made this change in later printings.


As for saddles, I have noted the passage in the Silmarillion where "Curufin curving stooped and lifted Luthien to his saddle, for he was a strong and cunning horseman". Another passage is in LotR 'Flight to the Ford' where Glorifindel says he will "shorten the stirrups up to the saddle-skirts" for Frodo to ride Asfaloth. JRRT did not change this passage, though he did change the 'bit' passage.