Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
10-09-2007, 04:24 AM | #1 | |||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
The Ring & the Curse
Quote:
Quote:
Of course, the Ring will corrupt one into a new Sauron if one is strong enough, & the Curse is meant merely to destroy & all that, but the question is 'Is there a difference in the nature of evil as portrayed in the two books? Certainly, taken as stand-alone works the stand out difference is that in CoH evil wins & in LotR it loses. What interests me - & I've addressed this before - is that while in terms of (original) composition & of internal chronology CoH came first, in terms of publication it comes last. And its more complicated than that too, because the CoH we have now was written after LotR. In Tolkien's 'final' published M-e novel evil wins. But what of the Ring & its corrupting influence - when one succumbs to the Ring & thus to evil one has fallen to a physical thing, but can one 'fall' in the same way to a 'curse'? Both Boromir & Turin seek glory - Boromir through the Ring, Turin in spite of the Curse. In LotR we are presented with the moral: 'If you strive hard enough, are prepared to sacrifice enough, evil can be defeated' - the tale ends in hope. In CoH the 'moral' seems to be: 'Whatever you do, evil will win out' I ended my original post: "Sorry - a lot of rambling musings there...." I fear that's still the case. |
|||||
10-09-2007, 08:00 AM | #2 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
|
An interesting addition might be to include The Hobbit here. What is the nature of evil in Bilbo's tale of the ring before it became The Ring?
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
10-09-2007, 08:37 AM | #3 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Turin made many bad decisions, and I would say that these were a result of his pride and not so much the curse - though that would provide a very convenient excuse. When exactly was he ever humble or repentant? Seems that he goes from one bad decision to another; kills friends, boasts, brags and repeatedly (from memory) takes what is 'owed' him. He also is a thorn in Morgoth's side; the price of creating the curse? Changing a free agent's fate costs Morgoth many orcs and Glaurung at the least. Turin marries his sister, which is icky, but at the time he did not know that he was doing so, and so cannot be held responsible for that one. And, sick is that is, didn't some dynasties maintain power by having siblings intermarry? And what of Adam and Eve's children? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||||
10-09-2007, 09:34 AM | #4 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
|
One reasonably perceptive critic termed Turin the "failed Aragorn." Discuss.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
10-09-2007, 10:13 AM | #5 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Isildur is the failed Aragorn. Peter Jackson spake thus.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
10-09-2007, 10:26 AM | #6 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,591
|
Quote:
This may, to some extent, reflect the differences between Morgoth and Sauron. Morgoth wanted to reduce everything to a nullity (Curse = Destruction). Sauron wanted to rule everything and be worshiped as the world’s god…i.e. he had a purpose beyond destruction, reflected in the Ring, while it would destroy its bearers was not doing it simply for the sake of destruction…it was trying to do something. Perhaps when viewed from the different ends that the Curse and the Ring had in mind, maybe this does show different types of evil.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
10-09-2007, 10:19 AM | #7 | |
Pile O'Bones
|
Quote:
Now off course even though it's only a small and quit unimportant happening, when you look at the big picture, whether the curse will be fullfilled or not could also be considered a battle between good and evil. But even here, isn't this a bit of a Phyrric victory? I mean, Morgoth, besides the gallons and gallons of orcs he lost as well, lost Glaurung, which could be considered one of his greatest trump-cards.... I don't think Morgoth was very happy with the outcome of this either, eventhough the curse was fullfilled. Now... Túrin as a failed Aragorn... I don't think this is a very valid comparison, due to the difference in the role they play in the tale. Either it is horribly off-topic, or you're talking about Aragorn not accepting the ring, knowing he would fail.... Túrin didn't quit come into a very similar situation, he didn't have the choice to be cursed by Morgoth or not. I think Túrin's biggest problem was his pride..... Now Cursed by a Dark Lord & Pride vs. Temptation of Evil doesn't seem like a good comparison to me?
__________________
"Ick ben de opstandinge ende het leven: die in my gelooft sal leven/ alwaer hy oock gestorven:" ^ Joannis 11:25 |
|
10-09-2007, 10:37 AM | #8 | ||
Leaf-clad Lady
|
I'd like to stick to the point in the very first post that said
Quote:
What comes to the comparison of Túrin and Aragorn, I just can't make a connection between those two. Actually, I'd rather compare Túrin to Sméagol, because of the 'evil' they do, and because neither of them I think is to be called evil... And, finally, I must say that Quote:
__________________
"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
||
10-09-2007, 02:38 PM | #9 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||||
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|