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Old 04-02-2007, 09:45 AM   #1
ninja91
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Dark-Eye More than meets the Eye

In The Shadow of the Past in FOTR, Gandalf tells Frodo that Sauron left his old fortress in Dol Guldur for his ancient stronghold in Mordor, Barad-Dur. Does this mean possibly that Sauron, even during the War of the Ring still had a physical form? There was no Eye at Mirkwood, but an evil necromancer. Since he left Dol Guldur and left for Mordor, was there a physical form? Was there a actual Sauron that actually dwelt in the tower, aside from the Great Eye?
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The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it...
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:05 AM   #2
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Yes, he had a body
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Originally Posted by Letter #246
Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.
also, Gollum's referrence, in The Black Gate is Closed, RotK, to his four fingers implies a body too.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:22 AM   #3
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Raynor's correct, Tolkien uses 'The Eye' as a symbol and a metaphor not as an actual physical presense (as Jackson portrays in the movies).

In literature the symbol of 'The Eye' is used to show this all-watching, all-seeing, and always present force. For examples...

In George Orwell's book 1984, the symbol of Big Brother is a giant eye...and Big Brother is the dominating government that knows everything and sees everything within it's country of Oceania.

The Freemasons use the 'Eye of Providence' to symbolize God watching over and his protection. Also the Eygptians 'Eye of Horus' is similar to this.

So the Eye can be associated not only with evil (dominating, all-seeing and control) but also with good (as in the form of protection). Tolkien actually first gives the symbol of the Eye to explain Morgoth:

Quote:
’It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom;for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its presure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be. ......

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyrrany of Sauron.~Home X; Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed
So, In HoME X, we see that the symbol of the Eye first is given to Morgoth and then under Sauron's power of the 2nd and 3rd ages the domination and tyrrany of Sauron intensifies.

So, Sauron does have a physical body during the War of the Ring, and The Eye is used as a symbol and metaphor. And when 'The Eye of Sauron' is mentioned it's used in passing to describe Sauron's omnipresense and control (and I think there is one time when Frodo had a vision of 'The Eye of Sauron'). But a vision isn't always reality.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:52 AM   #4
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I might also add, that when Pippin was looking into the Palantír, he saw Sauron - and probably in physical form, judging from Pippin's style of description:
Quote:
Then he came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood.
'"So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"
I did not answer. He said: "Who are you?" I still did not answer, but it hurt me horribly; and he pressed me, so I said: "A hobbit."
Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"
Then he gloated over me. I felt I was falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more. I don't remember anything else.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:50 PM   #5
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Tolkien

But...but...I thought that Gandalf said Sauron wasn't powerful enough without the Ring to take physical form?
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:39 PM   #6
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Mathew, I think you might be confusing some lines with the movies. I know in the movies Gandalf says he can not yet take a physical form, but I don't remember that being in the books.

Raynor mentioned Gollum's remark (in The Black Gate is Closed) where Gollum remarks that Sauron had 'four fingers on his black hand; but that is enough.'

Also there are several instances where there is a reference to Sauron coming...Legate mentioned Pippin's encounter with the palantir...'Then he came.' Another one that comes to mind is when Denethor says 'He will only come to triumph over me when all is won.'

And...
Quote:
'But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'~Letter 200
After Sauron was overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil Sauron did re-build his body, it just took him longer than before. I guess you could read this as implying if you simply killed Sauron enough times he wouldn't have enough 'will' to build himself a new body.
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