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12-26-2006, 05:53 PM | #1 | |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Mouth of Sauron at Erebor ?
As I was reading through another thread, I suddently came across this quote:
Quote:
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12-26-2006, 06:36 PM | #2 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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I think it was more likely a Nazgul from Dul Guldur. It was a long way for the Mouth to travel three times, Dul Guldur was closer. The reaction of the Dwarves was also rather profound for an ordinary Man (because that is essentially what the Mouth was).
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12-26-2006, 06:56 PM | #3 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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I always thought it was a Nazgul too (although it can't be for certain). I'll get to that more in a bit. Aye, but first:
Quote:
Quote:
The wraiths relied heavily upon fear: Quote:
Quote:
Also, the messenger was out for information. It wanted to find out about 'the thief' (Bilbo) and where he was with this ring he had 'stolen.' At this time it were the Ringwraiths who were going around trying to gather information about 'Baggins' and 'Shire.' So, I definitely agree with Kuru that it was a Ringwraith who was the secret messenger.
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12-27-2006, 02:24 AM | #4 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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A Horseman in the Night
I'd agree with Kuruharan&Boro on that this "horseman in the night" might be a Ringwraith. Boro's "hissing" points are quite good, and also Kuru's thoughts of Dol Guldur being much closer to Erebor than Mordor.
I went a little bit further and done a little exegesis to support this theory. As we know, Gloins speaks of this messenger to Dain at the Elrond's Council; Gloin says that the messenger will come Quote:
In Unfinished Tales, there is written, that Quote:
If someone needed to verify if the Ringwraith were able to be at Erebor, there are the datums. Remember that it was almost at the start of their quest for the Ring-bearer, so were they "on-line" at the time the messenger came to Erebor? Gloin says that first time the messenger came "a year before" the Council, as he puts it, so let's say september to november 3017. This would imply that immediately after receiving the information from Gollum, Sauron sent this messenger to the "scene of murder", Erebor (of course he did, being it such a grave matter as the One Ring). At this time, the Nazgul were certainly "free of duties" to do this. The second coming, however, is quite obscure. Gloin says just that he returned without answer, but does not say when. If our "horseman in the night" indeed was a Ringwraith, it would have to happen before June 3018, when the Witch-King and the other Ringwraith set out from Mordor to meet with Khamul and his messenger (according to UT). This happened after Sauron received the message of Gollum being captured by Aragorn, which, according to UT, was some time around April 3018. According to Gloin, the messenger said that he'd come before the end of the year. Sauron's choice of sending the Nazgul out was improvised and quick in response to the events at that time, thus, when the messenger came, he still counted on that the third time (as he said, before the end of 3018), he will return and ask about the whereabouts of the Ring and it's bearer. He did not know that at the moment, the whereabouts of the Ring would be already known because of speeding up the events with Sauron's response to the capture of Gollum by Aragorn. So it is indeed possible that this messenger was a Ringwraith, and we also came up to the dates of the messenger's coming So, to be precise, the only thing which might stand against the theory of the messenger being a Ringwraith would be that the Ringwraith were something like a "last resort" for Sauron, and he didn't want to use them because the fear they produced was too great. However, this fear was just the thing Sauron used (um, as always). Also, it was problem for the Ringwraith to cross water, however, this would be possible on oars or whatever in the Wilderness. They had also problem with orientation in daylight - but this would speak FOR the Ringwraith theory, since the messenger could have traveled at night - and, Gloin says, that he came in the night - and what man would not camp outside Erebor and wait for the dawn until negotiating! Also, in the night, his identity could not have been revealed - so that no one would know he was a Ringwraith!
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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12-27-2006, 05:57 AM | #5 |
Odinic Wanderer
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I cannot remember what I initially thought this messenger was, probably a wring wraith, but I must say that I see no evidence for it.
Fell voice: I am fairly sure that the Mouth of Sauron was not very lovely to listen to, any human can have a fell voice Hiss of Snakes: Now this is something that I assoisiate with the Nazgul, but I sertainly do not see it as proof! and it did only make people shutter, the Nazgul is known to have a more severe effect on their soroundings! And it was only those who heard him that was affected, not the people of Erebor in genneral. Like one can be moved by the words of another man, so can the appearance and sound of him make you shutter. Heavy have the hearts: Yes of course! They stand between to opptions 1. the eternal wrath of mordor, or 2. betraying a friend. Who would not have heavy harts? It could very well have been a Nazgul, but it might as well have been some sort of living messenger. Yes these things could indicate that it was a Nazgul, but for some reason I doubt that Tolkien would descripe a living messenger from Mordor as a real cheerful and lovely chap' ! |
12-27-2006, 06:53 AM | #6 | |||
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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well, I hate answering my own question, but I remembered I overlooked one also important aspect of the story when asking.
as Lieutenant of Barad-dur, Mouth of Sauron clearly was charged with dealing with internal business, and taking care of the matters in the Dark Tower. However, I have just found some quotes that make me believe it was just an ordinary emissary, and not a Ringwraith: Quote:
Quote:
And I have another reason that makes me think that the Nazgul never went to Erebor. Considering the story in the UT we can see what effect the presence of a Nazgul has, effects much more devastating then the words of the messenger at Erebor. People fled from their homes in Rohan when they went to Isengard, fear went before them and lingered behind them. These are clearly not the effects the messenger has. The hearts of the Dwarf chieftains are heavy, but not because of the messenger himself, but because of the message. They knew all what the messenger was talking about, and they all knew the might of Sauron - that is in my opinion reason enough to have a heavy heart. This quote is in my opinion very useful: Quote:
As Rune very well points out, the fact he had a "fell voice" or "hiss of snakes" do not mean he was necessarily a Nazgul. So my conclusion: this was just an "ordinary" emissary, that "[size=-1]could bring him no tidings."[/size]
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
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