Saruman and betrayal

[lindil]

I've always wondered how Saruman pulled off amassing his army with [seemingly]no one but the Ents noticing it was mostly ORCS.

So, if the 'West' meaning Galadriel/Lorien, Rivendell/Elrond/rangers and Denethor/Gondor had found out earlier. What could have been done?

Perhaps as well, Denethor did know [via the palantir] and this is one of the many things he distrusted Gandalf over.

But as re: Saruman:
*pre-emptive strikes ?
* another secret mission by G.?
*'live and let live' till attacks start?
*negotiate?

The history of M-E is rife w/ treason, Maeglin, Morgoth, THe sons of Ulfang, Wormtongue, Saruman...to name the main ones that come to mind. Excepting Wormtonuge [outed unsuccessfully by Eomer] are there any other instances of treason being spotted early?

[Kuruharan]

I think there would probably have been only one realistic option. They would have to get Rohan to try and flatten Isengard. They might have tried negotiation, but I think we all know where that would lead.

I can't really think of an instance where treason was nipped in the bud...

[Mänwe]

Lindil you raise an interesting point, though I would dare to correct you and say that it was indeed Gandalf who discovered the mind and plans of Saruman before any. I say this on the existence of the following quote;

“…and the valley below seems far away. I looked on it and saw that, whereas it had once been green and fair, it was now filled with pits and forges. Wolves and orcs were housed in Isengard, for Saruman was mustering a great force on his own account, in rivalry of Sauron and not in his service yet.” – (Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond)

There is no text before hand suggesting that the Ents had discovered the intentions of Saruman before this quote and so it is I believe unfounded to say that it was they who discovered it.

Why no-one else should have discovered the truth behind Saruman before Gandalf bought such tidings to the council in Rivendell was I believe the turmoil of the times, and the numerous references to Saruman having masked his feelings well.

“So Saruman guessed, and he had concealed his mind and deceived his messenger…” (Book II Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond)

“…and I still trusted the lore of Saruman” (Book I, Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past)

“`This is grievous news concerning Saruman,' he said; `for we trusted him and he is deep in all our counsels.” (Book II Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond)

The elves still held him in high regard and had no reason to distrust him; consequently they would not have watched him. Gandalf also the most prominent (other than Saruman) of his order at this time still trusted him.

“all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears. So my doubt slept - but uneasily. Still I watched and I waited.” (Book I, Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past)

“But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.” (Book II, Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond)

Though this trust was beginning to become more uneasy until his meeting with him at Orthanc after the news bought to him by Radagast. In summary he had deceived them all, and none had known his real thoughts. The absence of a discovery before the point at which Gandalf saw, is proof of this I think.

As for what might have happened, I am not a great fan of speculation but perhaps we would see a “re-run” of the flight of Sauron from Dol Guldur. The Council perhaps may have driven Saruman from Orthanc.

[Kuruharan]

The Council perhaps may have driven Saruman from Orthanc.

Or tried to pen him in as Gandalf did in the event. I don't know if they would have wanted to kill him. I personally think it unlikely.

I do think they would have wanted to keep him from getting away if possible.

[Mänwe]

Kuruharan quite right,

"'The treacherous are ever distrustful,' answered Gandalf wearily. 'But you need not fear for your skin. I do not wish to kill you, or hurt you, as you would know, if you really understood me. And I have the power to protect you. I am giving you a last chance. You can leave Orthanc, free – if you choose.'" - (The Voice of Saruman, Book III The Two Towers)

I was unlooking during my first post. As Gandalf entertains the idea of letting him free here, then had they taken action against him earlier I would say that the same would have applied.

[the phantom]

What could have been done?

Aren't what-ifs fun?

pre-emptive strikes?

That would certainly be the smart way to go, if you could catch Saruman by surprise the way the Ents did and get it over with quick. A siege certainly isn't an option in my mind, because you can't spare the troops and time for a siege with Sauron sitting across the Anduin. No no, if possible you'd want to land a crushing blow to Saruman with no warning and turn your attention back to Mordor as quickly as possible.

'live and let live' till attacks start?

You mean ignore Saruman until he attacks? Definitely not. Getting Rohan to ignore Saruman was Grima's whole job. Saruman wanted to be left alone while he built up.

negotiate?

Well, I suppose that might be the option that all the hopeful unrealistic people would recommend. Yes indeed, in their silly little minds talking/bargaining/negotiating/pacifying always makes things better. But arguing against them would be every person who has ever dealt with Morgoth, Sauron, Glaurung, and other such delightful individuals.

I'm thinking Elrond and the others would be intelligent enough not to negotiate. You'll notice that Gandalf talked terms with Saruman after he smashed his army and had him trapped. It wasn't really a negotiation. It was mercy to an already defeated opponent.

[Kuruharan]

if you could catch Saruman by surprise the way the Ents did and get it over with quick. A siege certainly isn't an option in my mind, because you can't spare the troops and time for a siege with Sauron sitting across the Anduin.

Hmmm...I think it might depend on when Saruman's treachery was discovered.

Say, for example, that somehow Saruman was exposed years before Sauron wanted to move. Would Sauron attempt to rescue Saruman?

[Rhod the Red]

As seems the case in all examples, and in life generally, we give others the benefit of the doubt to trust them. Only at the last minute does the White Council know of Saruman's treachery. The same with the books and life generally.

[Břicho]

This is an interesting thread. Animalmother I find it fascinating that you think Gandalf lied in order to not corrupt any people in the Council. Your argument makes sense to me;and I LIKE it, somehow; except I would suggest that Middle-Earth is NOT earth as we know it(of course, this is obvious, but bear with me.) Gandalf consistently not only displays an ability to manipulate(towards the common good) but an ability to "fire up men's hearts" to instill courage--of course I know you know that. But Gandalf displays another trait very consistently, so consistently that he's able to let go of the most powerful instrument on Earth, and let it go into darkness and uncertainty; this would be sheer madness if we were talking about an atomic bomb, wouldn't it?

This other trait that Gandalf displays--and which I think you forget-- is FAITH.

He has a FAITH in a higher power that leads him to believe that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, Frodo was meant to have it, and possibly, hopefully, Frodo was meant to somehow wander into Mordor and destroy the Ring, and so on. He displays FAITH in Pippin; somehow, for somereason Merry and Pippin are MEANT to be in the Fellowship of the Ring, and so on.

Given that Elrond has a certain faith, too, that the Members of the Council had been "called" for the purpose of the council(though not by him, actually ORDAINED by some higher power to be there) I think it's possible that Gandalf would have trusted that it was indeed and spoken freely. Also, I think that Gandalf and Elrond, and a few others in the Council could sense corruption and evil better than most; they weren't easily deceived--it took a Wizard to pull the wool over their eyes.

In my opinion in your interpretation, Gandalf did not have much faith; he sent Frodo away because there was no other choice, merely. But I don't find that believable: only in the context of Gandalf's incredible FAITH(though not doubtfree) does the decision to send off Frodo to Mordor seem believable to me, character-wise.

Also...from Saruman's side.
Again, your interpretation is plausible; there's something even cool about it; but he simply could have been a little batty, and slipped up.
He did not necessarily understand Gandalf's intentions; perhaps a little part of Saruman had always wanted to rule and he simply assumed, as Gandalf was of the same high, rare order as he that Gandalf had the same intentions--that they were meant to counter Sauron: and one way to do that was to rule.

I say SARUMAN DID NOT UNDERSTAND GANDALF at all; because Gandalf had a certain FAITH(maybe Faith is a sort of wisdom) and Saruman didnt have it and never had had it.
His "wisdom" had always been more as you have painted Gandalf's--a Machiavellian, scheming, clever, manipulative wisdom.

Gandalf could be that way, too, to be sure, but his chief wisdom and what set him aside from many in Middle Earth was in his trust in FAITH and belief that some things happened for an ordained reason; in the ability to seize the moment and come up with creative solutions(like sending Frodo to the fire--only someone with extreme faith would have done that) and so on.

Your interpretation is fascinating; and, within the translator's conceit, makes some sense; but there are other interpretations.

Also, regarding the "ten men a day" thing needed for feeding orcs...I don't agree. He did not have to feed them man-flesh every ten days...It could have only been on holidays. I would also say, that perhaps mans-flesh was something that Orcs LOVED like a drug; in which case, Saruman might have given them just a taste and promised them more once victory was at hand. In which case, he would have needed to feed them much less than 230 kgs a year...Maybe only 230 kgs a year...Also, whenever they went on a raid, (say before the eoreds started fighting them at the Fords) as long as they found some farmers or something, they would get a little mansflesh as a bit of a "reward"--their spoils, so to speak. (But never enough, never enough) Yum.

(i know the idea is horrid, but I think the Orcs ARE horrid and Tolkien plays it down, actually.)

[mhagain]

Yup, I'd always viewed being given man flesh was a special thing, a reward. I don't have the book to hand, but am pretty sure that "we ain't had nothin' but maggoty bread for three stinking days" has at least an equivalent in it. A clear case of Uruks not having an exclusive diet.

If Saruman had been outed earlier, I'm pretty sure he would have dug himself well into Isengard. Only the Ents it seems were fully capable of actually doing anything, and even then they couldn't get him out of the place. It would have likely ended up as a protracted siege with resources tied up in keeping an eye on him. There would have been no Helms Deep, no Ride of the Rohirrim, and Gondor would have likely fallen. By the time the White Council were really aware that the Necromancer was Sauron returned, he was already strong enough to move back to Barad Dur. And I think he would have been quite happy to leave Saruman stew - tying up resources in the west was the objective, and doing so would have had the same end result.

[Kuruharan]

I don't have the book to hand, but am pretty sure that "we ain't had nothin' but maggoty bread for three stinking days" has at least an equivalent in it. A clear case of Uruks not having an exclusive diet.

You are probably thinking of the orc throwing Pippin the stale bread and strip of meat.

This actually speaks favorably of the orcs supply capacity because you'd have to think that they would not be generous with food to prisoners, but they gave the prisoners both bread and meat.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This actually speaks favorably of the orcs supply capacity because you'd have to think that they would not be generous with food to prisoners, but they gave the prisoners both bread and meat.

To be fair, these are not typical prisoners - they are the short fellows the orcs were sent to capture. Their health was a priority. They were ordered to keep them alive for Saruman; feeding them was probably done with that in mind. This order is alluded to throughout Book 3 Chapter 3 "The Uruk-Hai." The last quote is maybe the most telling.

'Very well,' said Uglúk. 'Leave them to me then! No killing, as I've told you before; but if you want to throw away what we've come all the way to get, throw it away! I'll look after it. Let the fighting Uruk-hai do the work, as usual.'

'I've returned to see that Orders are carried out and the prisoners safe,' answered Grishnákh.
'Indeed!' said Uglúk. 'Waste of effort. I'll see that orders are carried out in my command. And what else did you come back for? You went in a hurry. Did you leave anything behind?'
'I left a fool,' snarled Grishnákh. 'But there were some stout fellows with him that are too good to lose. I knew you'd lead them into a mess. I've come to help them.'

'[...] Oh dear no! What do you think you've been kept alive for? My dear little fellows, please believe me when I say that it was not out of kindness: that's not even one of Uglúk's faults.' (Grishnákh)