Concerning the Gaffer

[Frodo Baggins]

I am not sure, so I want your opinions. Did Gaffer Gamgee really love his son Samwise? Or, was he too busy slapping him around and calling him names?

[Nevtalathiel]

I think he did love his son, but found it hard to express his feelings and didn't say the nasty the things really to be mean [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[piosenniel]

mae govannen, frodo baggins! welcome to the downs.

i think that slapping your child and calling him names is an odd way to show love, don't you?

[ElanorGamgee]

I think the Gaffer did love Sam, or else Sam probably wouldn't care for his father so much. Maybe he just was worried about his son turning out right and disciplined him harshly in an attempt to keep him on the straight and narrow. Or maybe he was just a cranky old man. Anyhow, I think Sam turned out fine despite the names and slapping, fortunately. Good topic!

[Birdland]

I think the Gaffer did really love his son. His attitude towards him is actually a reflection of the English class system that Tolkien grew up with.

"Elves and dragons! Cabbages and taters are more for the likes of us!" (quoting off the top of my head.) The Gaffer, in a way, is protecting his son, by reminding him that, while he may play and work with members of the Hobbit "gentry", he is still of the lower class. The class system in England (and by reflection the Shire) may have seemed to have looser boundries than those of other societies, but there WERE boundries. And people were taught from the time they were young just where the line was drawn, and the consequences for crossing those lines.

The Gaffer was afraid that Bilbo's teachings and tales might lead Sam to believe that he could achieve more and be more than he was. Lead him to "put on airs" and think he was the "same as his Betters." By tearing Sam down as he did, he was reminding him of the realities of life, as he saw it, and trying, in his own way, to spare him from disappointment. He was reminding him of his "place."

After all, Sam may have played with the Tooks and Brandybucks when he was young, but he would never be able to walk up to The Old Took and ask for the hand of his daughter.

Tolkien saw this class system finally break down with the advent of WW I, when the gentry and working class fought together in the trenches, and many men of humble birth proved themselves in battle and rose through the ranks to prominence.

You can see this also happening to Sam, as his role in the War of the Rings earned him the respect of the people of Middle Earth, and more importantly, the Shire, and led to the Gamgees becoming one of the most prominent families in the land.

Though he did not do it for fame or glory, Sam, through his actions, had finally "arrived". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

The Gaffer did love Sam! If he didn't, Sam wouldn't have taken care of him the way he did. Like lots of people I know, Gaffer Gamgee is just not all that great at saying, "I love you". And personally, in this situation, I don't think it need be said. Sam just seems to KNOW that his dad loves him, even if he calls him a ninnyhammer. And my mum calls me a ninnyhammer too (though not in so many words [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). It never seemed to be an issue; its one of those things that just WAS, like magic and wizards and that Eru guy.
Although I never heard about the slapping around bit. Did Gaffer Gamgee hit Sam? I'm no expert, so I'll trust those who are [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Halfir]

As an aside comment on Birdland's post regarding Tolkien and the English class system, it used to be said that the English preferred their dogs to their children. That is why they have a NationalSociety for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children , but a RoyalSociety for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals! (I'm British by the way).

[Frodo Baggins]

I don't know about any slapping ging on, but I suspected it amy have happened, Am probably wrong, every time I open my mouth I put my foot in it, as the Gaffer would say. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

I don't recall any mention of slapping around in the book, but I'm sure the Gaffer would have whole-heartedly agreed with the Bible's admonition "Spare the rod, and spoil the child."

But you get the feeling that Sam was a good and dutiful son (he stayed with his father, when his brothers all left), and probably didn't get too many "whuppins".

[Child of the 7th Age]

This whole thread underlines the fact that it was really quite amazing that Sam and Frodo were as close as they were, given their class differences. In many ways, the Shire represents the attitudes and class structures of Victorian and Edwardian England. Gaffer's role as a working class father is just part of this.(This aspect of Hobbit life has always intrigued me, especially when it is contrasted with the truly "archaic" outlook of people like the Rohirrim.)

What's especially interesting is that most studies indicate that young men in this traditional time period who have crossed the divide between working class and "middle class" usually do so with the help and encouragement of the mother. She is the one who internalizes middle class values like formal education, while the life of the father is more strongly tied to the working-class work cycle, mates at the pub, etc. Most working class fathers wanted their sons to join them in the mines, factories, or fields; they feared losing them emotionally and they wanted the practical help the son could provide as well. Part of this behavior can be seen in this light. Sam didn't have a mom to povide this transition role, but he did have Bilbo and then Frodo. And he was able to make that transition successfully across class lines. In a society which is much more structured than ours, this is no small matter.

My guess is that Gaffer deeply respected his gentry bosses, but never felt completely comfortable with them. How would you feel as a working class gardener if your son "ran off" for several years on a wild adventure that seemed to bear little relevence to the pactical business of cabbges and taters? He probably thought Frodo a bit touched in the head, although he always defended the family against detractors.

It is true that some of Sam's actions towards Frodo as they struggle forward on the quest were essentially those of a servant caring for a beloved master. And Sam does not really make any independent decisions until he assumes Frodo has been killed by Shelob. And yet it is also quite clear that their relationship goes beyond any normally accepted class boundaries. What is most amazing is to remember that Frodo made Sam his heir, so the latter inherited Bag End, undoubtedly one of the nicest homes in Hobbiton. (Just ask Lobelia Sackville-Baggins--a pretentious upstart name if I ever heard one!) So the family definitely made it and even changed their name to Gardener, I believe, in later generations. So his father's worst fears about his son needing to know his place were understandable but never realized. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Birdland]

(Just ask Lobelia Sackville-Baggins--a pretentious upstart name if I ever heard one!)

L.O.L.! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Samwise]

My....a very deep subject, Mister Frodo. Very deep indeed. My ol' Dad, loved me, I'm sure, though in just his way, if you understand my meaning.

"My lad Sam will know more about that. He's in and out of Bag End. Crazy about stories of the old days, he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo's tales. Mr. Bilbo has learned him his letters--meaning no harm, mark you, and I hope no harm will come of it. "
~Gaffer Gamgee

[Frodo Baggins]

Thank you Child of the 7th Age. I kind of had to untangle you words, but I see your point. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Oh! Sam! So you found this little topic did you? I am probably just putting my foot in my mouth again. Curiosity killed th cat you know, but satisfaction brought him back. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Ah, yes, Lobelia *shudders* I'm at least half Baggins by birth. She's only Baggins (and a Sacville) by marriage She's actually a Brecegirdle.

[The Half-Hobbit]

I'd not noticed any slappin' going on in the Gamgee family. I always interpreted the Gaffer's attitude towards Sam to be rough affection. No, he's not a gentleman like Bilbo, he's a gardener and his rough tone matches his rough hands and (probably) rough life. Wasn't he mentioned as one of the less fortuneate hobbits that recieved very nice presents from Bilbo after the party?

[Samwise]

Oh! Sam! So you found this little topic did you?

Yessir. How could I help but come to a place where my old dad was bein' discussed? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] An', no, sir--I've never noticed you puttin' your foot in your mouth, but if that's what you want t' do, that's certainly your buisness. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

"Once I do get to sleep," said Sam, "I shall go on sleeping, wether I roll off or no. And the less said, the sooner I'll drop off, if you take my meaning. "

[Thinhyandoiel]

An', no, sir--I've never noticed you puttin' your foot in your mouth, but if that's what you want t' do, that's certainly your buisness.

LoL!
Samwise, I've seen your posts before and everytime they always make me smile!! I'm VERY glad you are here at the Down's! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Frodo Baggins]

Thinhyandoiel, you are soo right. I could not agree more.

Samwise, you always brighten my day, and probably half the others on this board. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Hear, hear!

[Rimbaud]

The class system in England 'broke down' after the war? Well, to some degree but institutionalised snobbery in Britain is still very much apparent, although perhaps not so readily to an outsider. Woe betide the job-seeker in London minus the BBC accent. Lower pay, fewer benefits if employed in the first place, certainly in the higher echelons. Yes there is improvement and I would even concede that it is dramatic but centuries of distinction between peoples do not vanish, more's the pity.

The North/South divide in England is as pronounced as ever, with London salaries so much higher on average than those in the North-East as to make a mockery of claims of equalisation. Add to that the rampant unemployment levels in England the further you get from the South-East - and you realise that much is the same as 'talways was.

Tolkien's knowledge of the inherently felt differences in that classical English society are well illustrated by the characters of Sam and the Gaffer. English fiction is rife with the stories of cross-class pairings and Tolkien tapped gently into this vein.

It is right to cite Gaffer's discomfort at such dealings. It was a badge of merit to be as distinct from the 'gentry' as possible, who, especially since the French Revolution, were seen as a joke, albeit a dissolute and excessively powerful one.

Gaffer's relationship with his son is a very typical picture; indeed something of a stereotyped picture. I'll quote another thread if I may - here is another example of an 'Archetype Devourer'. The gruff working class father too repressed to show emotion and steadfast of his knowledge of his place and his childrens' place. It would not surprise me if the thought of 'loving' his son would be somewhat alien to him. This is not to say that he did not, merely that it would not occur to him to consider it too much, for that was clearly 'woman's work'. Any such emotion would be coated in layers of duty and responsibility and the ingrained work-ethic. It would appear that Sam would inspire a feeling of 'pride' within the Gaffer rather than the rather newer concept of 'love' and all the hang-ups the Western world has dangled upon that word.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Stephanos--

Your points on current class distinctions in Great Britain are very well taken. Even in my own background in the U.S., I had remnants of that. My grandfather was a miner. His family came from Cornwall. (We still eat pasties and saffron cake in our family!) My Dad ended up as a factory worker in Detroit. And I'm much older than most posters on this board so things were much more rigid back then. (As far as my age, let's just say that I have a lot in common with Frodo when he sailed off to Elvenhome!)

Anyways, my family was extremely nervous about my desire to go on to college and even to get an advanced degree, which I did in medieval history. They always worried, I think, that they would lose me somehow. They feared my education and friends would set me apart from them, or would make me turn away. (Believe me, it never has.)

So, although my favorite character may be Frodo, it was Sam whom I identify with most closely on reading LOTR. I knew my family, who are very loving, would say exactly the same things to me about chasing after Elves that Sam's father had relayed to him. And probably for reasons that really weren't too different. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Birdland]

Absolutely Child. Class distinctions still exist in the good ol' U.S.A. Even in my little midwestern city there is a dividing line between families with an Appalachian (Hillbilly) background on the West side of town and the self-described "Betters" on the North side. My niece even dated a boy in high school whose family was not happy he was seeing a "West Sider." Of course, it all boils down to money, education, and speech patterns. (Since I have an Appalachian background, I had no trouble understanding The Gaffer's dialect.)

And yes, whenever I used "big words" or showed an interest in literature or the "High Arts" while growing up, my mother would chide me for "putting on airs". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Samwise]

LoL!
Samwise, I've seen your posts before and everytime they always make me smile!! I'm VERY glad you are here at the Down's!
------------------
Frodo Baggins
Thinhyandoiel, you are soo right. I could not agree more.
Samwise, you always brighten my day, and probably half the others on this board.
-------------------
Aosama, the Wandering Star
Hear, hear!
-------------------

Aw.....Thanks much, folks. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[-Imrahil-]

Bravo Samwise. Continue! I love it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

I somehow missed the thing before, and whatever policies concerning off topic posting, can't withstand the temptetion to post the following:

by Rimbaud

It would appear that Sam would inspire a feeling of 'pride' within the Gaffer rather than the rather newer concept of 'love' and all the hang-ups the Western world has dangled upon that word.

Rimbaud, u r da man, very true it is (all the post, not only this quotation)

thanks