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Old 09-05-2006, 11:35 AM   #1
Menelvagor
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Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop?

Whenever reading through Book 1 of LOtR, I have the impression that the lucky outcome of these events seems unrealistic, even in the context of a fairy-tale like story. In my opinion, there are at least three points where the Nazgul really must have got the Ring:

First, the "Prancing Pony" in Bree: After Frodo's disappearance, they know that the Ring is in front of them. The Hobbits are not able to withstand them at this point, and neither do the people of Bree. Aragorn, as strong and brave he is, cannot do much either, apparently he does not have any (useable) weapon
at this time. Why did the Nazgul not dare to fight in this situation? The "standard" answer might be that they are just ghosts, but they are able to cut the Hobbit's pillows, so they must have some physical power.

The situation is even more striking at Wheathertop, where the company is alone, and Frodo is already seriously wounded.

The third point is the "Last Bridge" over the Greyflood river. With some knowledge of the geography of Eriador, this place must appear as the weakest point on the way to Rivendell to anyone. The Hobbits almost certainly have to cross this bridge, being far away from any help. Why do the Nazgul do not await and attack the company there? In contrast, at Bruinen ford, where they try their final attack, they must expect some powerful help to their enemies from Rivendell.

To summarize all this, the behaviour of the Nazgul seems very inconsequent to me, and this is unbelievable, given the price that they could win or lose: If they got the Ring in Eriador, the dark powers would have won forever. On the other hand, with the arrival of the Ring in Rivendell the war is in some sense already lost for Sauron & Co. He did of course not think of Gandalf's strategy that in the end causes his complete defeat, but from this point on he has to expect that some mighty person would conquer him using the Ring, which would almost certainly mean the end of his realm.

So, why did the Nazgul did not fight to the very end in this situation? Is it possible that -- deep in their heart -- they were still a bit human and did not really want Sauron's victory?
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:48 AM   #2
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One of the reason given in the book is Frodo calling on the name of Varda. The latest explanation comes from the Reader's Companion by Hammond and Schull:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LotR: Reader's Companion notes to page 208
...the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgűl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.
This is supported by statements in Sauron Defeated (HoME VI I believe) about the value of the swords, refferences which didn't make it in the final version.
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:19 PM   #3
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The Hunt of the Ring is a good reference to the movements of the Nazgűl. The following quotes are taken from Scull & Hammond: A Reader's Companion

There were only three Nazgűl in Bree and two left to attack the Hobbits, coming back the Road from Weathertop to Bree.

They reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events of the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-King][...]
[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. ... The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. [...]
[The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-King] to report the bearer has gone (without waiting for further news)


The two Riders misinterpreted the absence of the Hobbits and thought they had gone before. Then the Witch-King (at the east-border of the Greenway) planed the pursuit.
Then Gandalf came into the story. He left Bree and overtook the Witch-King of the way to weathertop. Four of the Nazgűl started to pursuit him. The other five later attacked Aragorn and the Hobbits on weathertop.
Aragorn could banish them and the Nazgűl lost the trace. Tolkien therefore gave us some reasons.
For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enmiyies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan.
Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgűl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo [...] he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.


After that he patrol the Road and the Bridge. But Glorfindel drove the Riders from the Bridge.

EDIT: Cross-posting with Raynor...
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor

To summarize all this, the behaviour of the Nazgul seems very inconsequent to me, and this is unbelievable, given the price that they could win or lose: If they got the Ring in Eriador, the dark powers would have won forever. On the other hand, with the arrival of the Ring in Rivendell the war is in some sense already lost for Sauron & Co. He did of course not think of Gandalf's strategy that in the end causes his complete defeat, but from this point on he has to expect that some mighty person would conquer him using the Ring, which would almost certainly mean the end of his realm.

So, why did the Nazgul did not fight to the very end in this situation? Is it possible that -- deep in their heart -- they were still a bit human and did not really want Sauron's victory?
Bear in mind that to Sauron the last thing he'd think anyone would do would be to destroy the Ring. He would always have his 'banking card' that somebody would be foolish enough to try and use it to defeat him and then they too would fall to the power of the Ring. Look at all the daft suggestions made at the Council of Elrond - maybe not daft to those making them, but daft to us as readers because we know that this object belongs to and fully responds to Sauron alone.
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:31 PM   #5
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I must admit to have wondered the same thing Menelvagor does here. Or at least the Weathertop-incident.

One could say that they just didn't find Frodo and the Ring in Bree. Plausible, perhaps. Although one is left with the question, why didn't they search more as they clearly terrorised everyone around and had the upper hand?

The Bruinen ford could be explained too, I think. Confusion, fastly changing situations and the spirit of the elven horse + the magic of the Rivendell etc.

But the Weathertop? Some halflings and one hero with torches against the Black Riders, against the Nazgűl? (Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!) Just compare their might and effect on the goodies later in the story! To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.

I think Raynor's and A Brandybuck's learned comments are worth noting, but still. On Weathertop they had their chance and chose to ran away. I'm a bit baffled about that, still am.
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:33 PM   #6
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I think the Nazgul failed for the same reason that the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom.

We wouldn't have had as good a story then.

Seriously, I think readers (and the Fellowship?) need a taste of the power they face and the terror they will meet as a way of helping build suspense. We don't really know or understand what this terrible power is until as readers we 'experience' the Nazgul.*

*keeping in mind that Tolkien's version of Fairie is not as dark as some of the original fairy stories, tales and legends.
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:46 PM   #7
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Forget all of the much later on dismay and such. The answer is not hard to see and rather simple:

If the Nazgul succeeded at likely points, the story wouldn't be that long and nowhere near as epic. All in all, whether you view it as Eru's will or Tolkien's power, it was done solely for the plot.

(Hey, at least the nazgul weren't put into as bad shoes as the humans in Halo.)
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:53 PM   #8
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Great material there from Raynor and the young Brandybuck. You learn something new every day ...

As for Weathertop, the Nazgul did at least partially succeed. The Witch-King stuck Frodo with a Morgul blade. He knew what the effects of that would be. At best (from the W-K's perspective), Frodo would succumb and become a Wraith himself. With no power to resist, he would don the Ring, slip away from his companions and easily be found by the Riders. At worst, it would slow down the companions' journey to Rivendell, possibly allowing the Riders to attack at full strength at a moment of their choosing.

Add to that the material provided by Raynor and A-Brandybuck, and it probably seemed to the Witch-King at that point that discretion was the best part of valour.

Of course, he didn't account for the fact that Glorfindel (and other Elves of Rivendell) were abroad - a foolish oversight, perhaps, but not one lacking in credibility. He underestimated the strength of Frodo's spirit - but how could have understood this? And he overlooked the healing skills of Aragorn (and the presence of athelas in the region) - something he should perhaps have had some conception of, but again not an oversight lacking in credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod
To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.
Tolkien states in one of his Letters that the Sauron imbued the Witch-King with added demonic force before the march on Gondor. So the Witch-King, at least, did gain power between FotR and RotK.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:18 PM   #9
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I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.

I wonder if this could be explained by the intervening rivers. Tolkien stated the the Nazgul were reluctant to cross running water, which seems peculiar, but similar stories are told of witches and sorcerors in folklore. It has been proposed that the runnning water interfered with their perception in some way (sort of messing with their vibes!), perhaps making them less sure and resolute in their actions than they would have been on 'home turf'.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:32 PM   #10
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I was about to say that the Nazgul might not have been powerful enough at the time that they were sent out to find the Ring. The only real record of a Nazgul at the height of its power was during the Arnor-Angmar war, and that war was lost to the army of Gondor even with the Witch-King in charge. I had always assumed that Sauron's and their power was not yet great enough to directly fight, and that they were sent only to seek and capture the Ring from some Shirelings, not to fight in open battle.
But the time frame seems off on this. Not a few months later, the Nazgul were flying, and leading the armies of Mordor into combat. Even with a few distracted and weakened by Gandalf, being afraid of fire and water, hearing the name of Elbereth, being stabbed by a Numenorean dagger, fighting the King of Men himself, in a place of great Mannish and Elvish power, far from Mordor and their master, and being surprised and shocked by all of these events intersecting...there should have been no way that nine immortal phantom warriors could not have found and killed some hobbits and a Dunedain.
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:22 PM   #11
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Like I said, ultimate author plot manipulation. The Nazgul were so deadly, only Tolkien himself could effectively save the hobbits.
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:12 PM   #12
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I think, that it is worth considering the fact, that the Nazgűl were abroad and deep in the 'enemies land'. Although they are very powerful in spreading fear, they had to be careful not to attract much attention, because there are enemies, which are more powerful then they are.

Taking Glorfindel as a example, who drove four Nazgűl from the Bridge and Gandalf was still 'lurking around'. There was a bunch of 'terrible' High-Elves in Rivendell and many Ranger in the wilderness.

And before weathertop, the Nazgűl weren't sure about the bearer of the Ring. That is, in my meaning, important to know to understand the behaviour of the Nazgűl in Bree. A direct attack could fail, if the bearer has been very powerful and could use the Ring. Especially because a Ranger with a powerful aura is with them.
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:21 AM   #13
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I've just thought of an ingenious, flawless conspiracy theory.

We neet to examine the Nazgul at two stages-during the hunt for the Ring, and at the siege of Minas Tirith.

While searching for the Ring in the Shire, they're quite scary, but only because we're seeing them from the Hobbit point of view. They're a bit feeble and pathetic really. Gandalf can take all nine of them, Glorfindel four or five. Aragon can scare them with a fiery stick.

Nevertheless-as detailed above-despite being vulnerable shadows (ho-ho) of their former selves, at several points they could easily have grabbed the Hobbits and nabbed the Ring...so why didn't they?

Because, fair readers, if they had seized the Ring before it reached Rivendell and taken it to their master, they would be quite unnecessary to Sauron. The Dark Lord, all-powerful, would have no need to increase their power or reward them.

As it is, the Ring slipped through their fingers, they were needed to counter the threat of a possible King of Gondor with the Ring, and so they-most notably the Witch King-had vastly augmented might and command. At Minas Tirith the Nazgul are truly terrifying, riding their beasties from an older world, with dark-flamed blades, souped-up armour...

This was the state they wanted to attain. And so they let the Ring go...
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Old 09-06-2006, 06:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck
I think, that it is worth considering the fact, that the Nazgűl were abroad and deep in the 'enemies land'. Although they are very powerful in spreading fear, they had to be careful not to attract much attention, because there are enemies, which are more powerful then they are.
I agree; as stated in the Hunt for the ring, "but Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgul were commanded to act as secretly as they could".
Quote:
They're a bit feeble and pathetic really
...
This was the state they wanted to attain. And so they let the Ring go
I disagree with both ideas:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunt for the ring, UT
At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
Now few could understand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul
...
They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #246
I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:38 PM   #15
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Well in Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says that:

"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

Perhaps that had something to do with it, since Sauron did not have the Ring they were weaker.
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Old 03-12-2008, 07:07 PM   #16
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Well in Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says that:

"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

Perhaps that had something to do with it, since Sauron did not have the Ring they were weaker.
This is a good point. Sauron's power was totally destroyed, along with all of his minions, during the battle of the last alliance, but he slowly came back. Could this be true with the Nazgul? Could they have gradually gained power, but not complete power until Sauron had the Ring again? Very good point Nazgul King!
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:20 PM   #17
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Galendor: The wraiths are ghostly forms wearing black cloth robes. Regular swords might not hurt them - but Aragorn's fiery brand could have caught their robes on fire and burnt them up. Then the wraiths would find themselves completely naked and very far from home - a scary thought for anyone!
In UT “Hunt for the Ring” the nazgul were traveling “unclad and unmounted” through Anorien and Rohan – for 17 days, no less! Thus their “naked” state was no big deal for them – only hindered their interaction with the living. At the Ford, the main problem was that they lost all their horses but one and were somewhat battered in the River, I guess, but still the Witch-King was able to ride to Mordor unclad and invisible ahead of the others:
Quote:
Only the bodies of 8 horses were discovered; but also the raiment of the Captain. It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed. Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) RC p. 262
At Weathertop the main thing that scared the nazgul was the Barrow-Downs sword in Frodo’s hands – the WK nearly got killed himself!
Quote:
But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgűl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger. Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring)RC p.181

Quote:
Groin Redbeard: Sauron's power was totally destroyed, along with all of his minions, during the battle of the last alliance, but he slowly came back. Could this be true with the Nazgul? Could they have gradually gained power, but not complete power until Sauron had the Ring again?
The nazgul were not destroyed with Sauron at the end of the Second Age. They simply retreated East with the remaining orcs from Barad-Dur.
Quote:
There can be no doubt that Sauron, well-informed of the Alliance, had sent out such Orc-troops of the Red Eye as he could spare, to do what they could to harry any forces that attempted to shorten their road by crossing the Mountains. It is unlikely that any news of Sauron's fall had reached them, for he had been straitly besieged in Mordor and all his forces had been destroyed. If any few had escaped, they had fled far to the East with the Ringwraiths. Note (No 20) in UT “Disaster of the Gladden fields"
The nazgul simply stayed somewhere in the East, until TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar. As for the power of the nazgul, I think they were greatly weakened when Sauron collected their Rings to himself. He needed the Nine rings to control the nazgul in the absence of One. If Sauron regained the One Ring, he would likely give the Nine back to the nazgul, making them stronger. That is my take on this.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:31 PM   #18
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The nazgul were not destroyed with Sauron at the end of the Second Age. They simply retreated East with the remaining orcs from Barad-Dur.
Yes, I know that much. What I meant was that maybe the Nazgul's strenghth is tied to Sauron's.
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:13 PM   #19
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What I meant was that maybe the Nazgul's strenghth is tied to Sauron's.
I don't see how it could be - literally. At the end of SA Sauron was reduced to a mere Spirit (twice!) still the nazgul were quite OK - while the Rings lasted.

The nazgul were tied to the Nine Rings (which Sauron held) - and thus to Sauron. Also through the Nine Rings they were tied to the Master Ring. The quote below also speaks of the Ring:
Quote:
The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again.
The ringless Sauron was quite powerful by the time of the War of the Ring, IIRC Toplkien said he was more powerful than Morgoth had been, yet the power of the nazgul (as evidenced in the failed Hunt for the Ring) was quite limited. Eight of them (except the WK) were rather pathetic creatures, when left to their own devices. I think it was because they were ringless and Sauron had no Ruling Ring either.
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