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09-05-2006, 11:35 AM | #1 |
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Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop?
Whenever reading through Book 1 of LOtR, I have the impression that the lucky outcome of these events seems unrealistic, even in the context of a fairy-tale like story. In my opinion, there are at least three points where the Nazgul really must have got the Ring:
First, the "Prancing Pony" in Bree: After Frodo's disappearance, they know that the Ring is in front of them. The Hobbits are not able to withstand them at this point, and neither do the people of Bree. Aragorn, as strong and brave he is, cannot do much either, apparently he does not have any (useable) weapon at this time. Why did the Nazgul not dare to fight in this situation? The "standard" answer might be that they are just ghosts, but they are able to cut the Hobbit's pillows, so they must have some physical power. The situation is even more striking at Wheathertop, where the company is alone, and Frodo is already seriously wounded. The third point is the "Last Bridge" over the Greyflood river. With some knowledge of the geography of Eriador, this place must appear as the weakest point on the way to Rivendell to anyone. The Hobbits almost certainly have to cross this bridge, being far away from any help. Why do the Nazgul do not await and attack the company there? In contrast, at Bruinen ford, where they try their final attack, they must expect some powerful help to their enemies from Rivendell. To summarize all this, the behaviour of the Nazgul seems very inconsequent to me, and this is unbelievable, given the price that they could win or lose: If they got the Ring in Eriador, the dark powers would have won forever. On the other hand, with the arrival of the Ring in Rivendell the war is in some sense already lost for Sauron & Co. He did of course not think of Gandalf's strategy that in the end causes his complete defeat, but from this point on he has to expect that some mighty person would conquer him using the Ring, which would almost certainly mean the end of his realm. So, why did the Nazgul did not fight to the very end in this situation? Is it possible that -- deep in their heart -- they were still a bit human and did not really want Sauron's victory? |
09-05-2006, 11:48 AM | #2 | |
Eagle of the Star
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One of the reason given in the book is Frodo calling on the name of Varda. The latest explanation comes from the Reader's Companion by Hammond and Schull:
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09-05-2006, 12:19 PM | #3 |
Haunting Spirit
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The Hunt of the Ring is a good reference to the movements of the Nazgűl. The following quotes are taken from Scull & Hammond: A Reader's Companion
There were only three Nazgűl in Bree and two left to attack the Hobbits, coming back the Road from Weathertop to Bree. They reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events of the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-King][...] [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. ... The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. [...] [The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-King] to report the bearer has gone (without waiting for further news) The two Riders misinterpreted the absence of the Hobbits and thought they had gone before. Then the Witch-King (at the east-border of the Greenway) planed the pursuit. Then Gandalf came into the story. He left Bree and overtook the Witch-King of the way to weathertop. Four of the Nazgűl started to pursuit him. The other five later attacked Aragorn and the Hobbits on weathertop. Aragorn could banish them and the Nazgűl lost the trace. Tolkien therefore gave us some reasons. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enmiyies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgűl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens. Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo [...] he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. After that he patrol the Road and the Bridge. But Glorfindel drove the Riders from the Bridge. EDIT: Cross-posting with Raynor...
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09-05-2006, 01:53 PM | #4 | |
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09-05-2006, 02:31 PM | #5 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I must admit to have wondered the same thing Menelvagor does here. Or at least the Weathertop-incident.
One could say that they just didn't find Frodo and the Ring in Bree. Plausible, perhaps. Although one is left with the question, why didn't they search more as they clearly terrorised everyone around and had the upper hand? The Bruinen ford could be explained too, I think. Confusion, fastly changing situations and the spirit of the elven horse + the magic of the Rivendell etc. But the Weathertop? Some halflings and one hero with torches against the Black Riders, against the Nazgűl? (Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!) Just compare their might and effect on the goodies later in the story! To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that. I think Raynor's and A Brandybuck's learned comments are worth noting, but still. On Weathertop they had their chance and chose to ran away. I'm a bit baffled about that, still am.
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09-05-2006, 04:33 PM | #6 |
Cryptic Aura
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I think the Nazgul failed for the same reason that the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom.
We wouldn't have had as good a story then. Seriously, I think readers (and the Fellowship?) need a taste of the power they face and the terror they will meet as a way of helping build suspense. We don't really know or understand what this terrible power is until as readers we 'experience' the Nazgul.* *keeping in mind that Tolkien's version of Fairie is not as dark as some of the original fairy stories, tales and legends.
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09-05-2006, 04:46 PM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Forget all of the much later on dismay and such. The answer is not hard to see and rather simple:
If the Nazgul succeeded at likely points, the story wouldn't be that long and nowhere near as epic. All in all, whether you view it as Eru's will or Tolkien's power, it was done solely for the plot. (Hey, at least the nazgul weren't put into as bad shoes as the humans in Halo.)
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09-05-2006, 04:53 PM | #8 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Great material there from Raynor and the young Brandybuck. You learn something new every day ...
As for Weathertop, the Nazgul did at least partially succeed. The Witch-King stuck Frodo with a Morgul blade. He knew what the effects of that would be. At best (from the W-K's perspective), Frodo would succumb and become a Wraith himself. With no power to resist, he would don the Ring, slip away from his companions and easily be found by the Riders. At worst, it would slow down the companions' journey to Rivendell, possibly allowing the Riders to attack at full strength at a moment of their choosing. Add to that the material provided by Raynor and A-Brandybuck, and it probably seemed to the Witch-King at that point that discretion was the best part of valour. Of course, he didn't account for the fact that Glorfindel (and other Elves of Rivendell) were abroad - a foolish oversight, perhaps, but not one lacking in credibility. He underestimated the strength of Frodo's spirit - but how could have understood this? And he overlooked the healing skills of Aragorn (and the presence of athelas in the region) - something he should perhaps have had some conception of, but again not an oversight lacking in credibility. Quote:
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09-05-2006, 05:18 PM | #9 |
Sage & Onions
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I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.
I wonder if this could be explained by the intervening rivers. Tolkien stated the the Nazgul were reluctant to cross running water, which seems peculiar, but similar stories are told of witches and sorcerors in folklore. It has been proposed that the runnning water interfered with their perception in some way (sort of messing with their vibes!), perhaps making them less sure and resolute in their actions than they would have been on 'home turf'.
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09-05-2006, 05:32 PM | #10 |
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I was about to say that the Nazgul might not have been powerful enough at the time that they were sent out to find the Ring. The only real record of a Nazgul at the height of its power was during the Arnor-Angmar war, and that war was lost to the army of Gondor even with the Witch-King in charge. I had always assumed that Sauron's and their power was not yet great enough to directly fight, and that they were sent only to seek and capture the Ring from some Shirelings, not to fight in open battle.
But the time frame seems off on this. Not a few months later, the Nazgul were flying, and leading the armies of Mordor into combat. Even with a few distracted and weakened by Gandalf, being afraid of fire and water, hearing the name of Elbereth, being stabbed by a Numenorean dagger, fighting the King of Men himself, in a place of great Mannish and Elvish power, far from Mordor and their master, and being surprised and shocked by all of these events intersecting...there should have been no way that nine immortal phantom warriors could not have found and killed some hobbits and a Dunedain.
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09-05-2006, 09:22 PM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Like I said, ultimate author plot manipulation. The Nazgul were so deadly, only Tolkien himself could effectively save the hobbits.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
09-05-2006, 11:12 PM | #12 |
Haunting Spirit
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I think, that it is worth considering the fact, that the Nazgűl were abroad and deep in the 'enemies land'. Although they are very powerful in spreading fear, they had to be careful not to attract much attention, because there are enemies, which are more powerful then they are.
Taking Glorfindel as a example, who drove four Nazgűl from the Bridge and Gandalf was still 'lurking around'. There was a bunch of 'terrible' High-Elves in Rivendell and many Ranger in the wilderness. And before weathertop, the Nazgűl weren't sure about the bearer of the Ring. That is, in my meaning, important to know to understand the behaviour of the Nazgűl in Bree. A direct attack could fail, if the bearer has been very powerful and could use the Ring. Especially because a Ranger with a powerful aura is with them.
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09-06-2006, 05:21 AM | #13 |
Byronic Brand
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I've just thought of an ingenious, flawless conspiracy theory.
We neet to examine the Nazgul at two stages-during the hunt for the Ring, and at the siege of Minas Tirith. While searching for the Ring in the Shire, they're quite scary, but only because we're seeing them from the Hobbit point of view. They're a bit feeble and pathetic really. Gandalf can take all nine of them, Glorfindel four or five. Aragon can scare them with a fiery stick. Nevertheless-as detailed above-despite being vulnerable shadows (ho-ho) of their former selves, at several points they could easily have grabbed the Hobbits and nabbed the Ring...so why didn't they? Because, fair readers, if they had seized the Ring before it reached Rivendell and taken it to their master, they would be quite unnecessary to Sauron. The Dark Lord, all-powerful, would have no need to increase their power or reward them. As it is, the Ring slipped through their fingers, they were needed to counter the threat of a possible King of Gondor with the Ring, and so they-most notably the Witch King-had vastly augmented might and command. At Minas Tirith the Nazgul are truly terrifying, riding their beasties from an older world, with dark-flamed blades, souped-up armour... This was the state they wanted to attain. And so they let the Ring go...
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09-06-2006, 06:56 AM | #14 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
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02-20-2008, 01:38 PM | #15 |
Wight
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Well in Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says that:
"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again." Perhaps that had something to do with it, since Sauron did not have the Ring they were weaker. |
03-12-2008, 07:07 PM | #16 | |
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03-13-2008, 12:20 PM | #17 | |||||
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03-13-2008, 02:31 PM | #18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes, I know that much. What I meant was that maybe the Nazgul's strenghth is tied to Sauron's.
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03-13-2008, 03:13 PM | #19 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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The nazgul were tied to the Nine Rings (which Sauron held) - and thus to Sauron. Also through the Nine Rings they were tied to the Master Ring. The quote below also speaks of the Ring: Quote:
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