Arwen's Mortality

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Was Arwens choice between mortality and immortality due to her history or the ring? As in, if her father wasnt Elrond and she was a regular elf, would she be immortal still if she stayed? Or would she be mortal (ie, every elf would be mortal) becaue the age of men came and the rings' power faded and eventually ended?

Arwen was able to choose to give up her Immortality because she was a Half-elf, and they were given a choice as to which fate would be their's. This was indeed because her father was a Half-elf, since his parents were Eärendil and Elwing who were both Half-elven. (Eärendil's father, Tuor, was a Man, and his mother, Idril, was a Noldorin Elf)

Would all Elves have become Mortal? No, I don't think that's possible, since death was Eru's gift to Mortals (Men, Dwarves, etc.) and the Elves could never really have it. Even when they died, it wasn't the same as when a Mortal did. The exception is of course Lúthien, who managed to convince Ilúvatar Himself to let her live another life with Beren as a Mortal.

Hope that made sense, and I hope I understood what you were saying.

[Legolas]

Elnimara is correct. Staying in Middle-earth into the Fourth Age would not automatically transform elves into mortal beings.

Elrond's half-elven family was given the choice - Elrond, his parents, and his brother. It was granted to them for Earendil and Elwing's heroic acts against Morgoth.

Because Elrond married a full elf, Celebrian, the choice was also extended to his children by her. Arwen and her brothers, Elrohir and Elladan, all had to make the decision (and they were supposed to do so before or shortly after Elrond left Middle-earth).

This choice had nothing to do with the One Ring. Peter Jackson may have made it sound so in the movie, but I think it was taken more literally than he intended. Many understood it to imply Arwen's life was magically tied to the Ring somehow. It's Elrond that says something like her fate is tied to it, isn't it? He means it in a logical/emotional way - not some binding, magical way. If the Ring is destroyed, she will stay with Aragorn. If the Ring is not destroyed, she has no reason to stay as Middle-earth will be overtaken by evil and Aragorn will die shortly.

[Farael]

Now, quick question, I can't really give many reasons for it nor to explain too much as it is rather simple.

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

[radagastly]

I think, once Elros chose mortality, and married a mortal, it was simply two mortals, so all their children would also be mortals. That's why his offspring did not get a choice. They were already mortal. After all, as I recall, it was not really a choice of being mortal or not. It was a choice as to which kindred they would belong to, elves or men. The mortality/immortality perk simply went along with that real choice, the Gift of Men, or the immortality of the Elves.

[Annatar!]

One thing i also think that Peter Jackson mis interpreted, or didn't accentuate enough concerning Arwen is that she made the choice to become mortal to her fathers heavy disgreement! In the movies he implied that she would die and that was somehow connected to the ring, and i agree with your description / analysis of the situation Legolas.
In the books Elronds' aggreivance with Arwens choice is more pronounced;

None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

Perhaps this situation was less "filmable" to Jacksons version, but it certainly has much more effect. In my opinion Jacksons interpretation even undermines the connection between Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen Undomiel, of who's 'likeness' she indeed walked, and who she shared the doom of mortality with. (That all should have been in the movies discussions... sorry)
But yes... the choice to become mortal was only ever given to the 'Peredhil' (a term i believe was only ever applied to Elros and Elrond) but means half-elven therefore includes Dior etc etc etc, although no-one else seemed to 'make' the choice except Elros, Elrond and Elronds children.
This means that when the choice is not conciously made the decendant of Immortal and Mortal appears to automatically be Immortal? As a result; Arwens death (and the inability of the other half-elven to have children with a mortal as they are no longer in ME) signifies the end of the half-elven in middle-earth! Although the most noble blood line to ever exist continues still in both Middle-Earth and Aman!

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Farael

Now, quick question, I can't really give many reasons for it nor to explain too much as it is rather simple.

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

As I understand it the choice was given to the sons of Earendil and Elwing, who were Elros and Elrond.

There was no question of Elros or his descendants having the option to become immortal at some later stage - if there had been , the downfall of Numenor would never have happened .

Elrond's choice meant his children were Elven . Arwen's was the " choice of Luthien " , which was a different matter altogether .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .

[Macalaure]

His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time now. This is how I understand it by now, I hope somebody can tell me whether I'm on the right track.

First I thought that Elrond's and Elros' situations are symmetric.
Elrond chose to be an elf. Then he marries an elf. My logic told me that normally elf+elf=elf.
Elros chose to be mortal. Then he marries a mortal woman. Why didn't their children get to choose with a renewed mortal strain? (which was also Farael's question, I think)

I think it is stated in 'Laws and Customs', that if mortal and immortal blood is mixed, the outcome is always mortal. So Earendil and Dior and his children were mortal half-elves in the beginning. Then the Valar had the brilliant idea to let Earendil and Elwing and their children choose between the fates of elves and men. Does this now mean exactly that, that Elrond and Elros chose their different fates, but they still remain half-elves nonetheless and don't actually become Elf or Man? If this is the case, then it is clear: Elrond's and Elros' children would always be mortal - unless new immortal blood comes into play. This renewed elvish strain via Celebrían then seems sufficient reason to give Elrond's children a choice, too.

Do I understand it right?

[Alchisiel]

As in, if her father wasnt Elrond and she was a regular elf, would she be immortal still if she stayed?

I think everyone has missed part of the question here or I am reading it differently than everyone else, so I will put my two cents in. If Arwen was an elf and not half-elven and stayed in Middle Earth and married Aragorn she would eventually "fade." I believe that in LotR it says that if the elves didn't go to the west they would eventually "fade" and/or become a rustic folk. I can't quite remember where I read it.

I don't think that elves and dwarves would ever get together like that. I think the elves thought the dwarves were too...hm,.....uncouth I guess you would say. As for the hobbits I believe that it is said that Frodo had an elvish look about him and that one of his ancestors might have been a fairy or elf. Logistically I don't think a hobbit and an elf could get together, if you get my meaning as Sam would say. After all hobbits are pretty short.

[Arathul]

Many people mistakenly think that Elrond and the long line of Numenorean Kings has a blood of a two kindred (Elves and Men). Actually it was Three. people tend to forget that Luthien mother, Melian, is a Maia just like Sauron.

[Arathul]

There is other union of Men and Elf besides Beren, Tuor and Aragorn. Remember Imrazor the Numenorean, father of Galador, first Prince of Dol Amroth? Legend has it that he wedded Mithrellas, an elven maid that he found wandering in the wild. what happen to mithrellas do you think?