Orcseys - always Evil?

[Thinlómien]

While skimming through Haudh-en-Ndengin, this topic caught my eye.

LMP's thread about uncorrupted orcs.

While reading through it, the following question came to my mind: If an orc would be orphaned as a baby and brought up by humans/elves, what would he be like? Would he be like the orcs we see in Tolkien's books? Or could he be brought up to be more humane?

[Glaurung]

Interesting question. Probably it would have some orcish features like a human orphaned to a wolf's family would have some features of a human(this was an extremely stupid example, but anyway). BUT I think we all know how much a person's upbringing can affect to his/her behaviour and opinions. For example, I know one person who seems to have picked all his (conservative) ideas and ways of thinking straight from his dad...
But still, when thinking about orcs, it would sound quite weird that ALL the evil in them would just depend on their upbringing... So I don't know. My guess is that the result would be an orc having the ideas and thoughts of a human. On a more basic level, I'd guess the orc would still have the instincts and (on some level) the nature of an orc, because they are things you can't change by a good upbringing.
Further on, I wonder how would the orc survive in a human community where (at least hopefully) intelligence is needed to succeed in life...

[Thinlómien]

I agree with you at some points. I think the orc would be less "evil" than normal orcs, but more "evil" than a human. He would still have an orcish temper.

[Findegil]

An orkish temper he might posses, but I would even think that he would not look like an normal Ork. I believe that the treatment that the Orks did to their children during childhood did effect their physical look very much. That is not to say that nobody would mark him as alien to the society in which he grow up, but that would very much depend on the country in which he would be fostered.
I am even not sure about temper, intelligence and "higher tendency to evil" (if such a thing could exist at all). If such things were seen as inherent in Orkish societies that could also be a result of selection in early childhood and not inherited by birth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Eldar14]

I hate to disagree with everyone so far, but I don't think that an orc could be non-evil, no matter how he was raised, unless someone of equal power to Morgoth were to spend generations upon generations trying to undo the work that Morgoth had done.

During the entire war of the ring, who was the only race that fought on the side of good that didn't fight on the side of evil (excepting Hobbits, who are an oddity)? The elves. The men fought on both sides, and the dwarves fought on both sides. And why was is that the elves only fought on one side? Because there is something inherrent to their being which causes evil to be abhorrent to them.

And, the orcs being a pervesion of the elves created by Morgoth, wouldn't it be considered possible that they may share the tendency to be predisposed towards a certain alignment.

Silmarillion:

And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.

It states in Sil that the orcs hated Morgoth, the "maker only of their misery." So, an inherent trait of orcs is their misery. They are miserable as a by-product of their very existance. And, hand-in-hand with this misery comes hate. As the nature of their being, they feel both misery and hate. I wouldn't be possible for a creature based on misery and hate to grow up to become good, no matter how well they were treated. Their inborn hate would fester and grow, until they were evil.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That quotation doesn't mean that the misery is inherent. They are placed in this dark, desolate life; and the misery springs forth very quickly from this arrangement. That line is there to show that the Orcs were slaves and not willing workers. The hatred is deep inside and has been since the start of their lives; but it doesn't suggest that the Orcs themselves are based on the hatred.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Glaurung

Interesting question. Probably it would have some orcish features like a human orphaned to a wolf's family would have some features of a human(this was an extremely stupid example, but anyway). BUT I think we all know how much a person's upbringing can affect to his/her behaviour and opinions. For example, I know one person who seems to have picked all his (conservative) ideas and ways of thinking straight from his dad...
But still, when thinking about orcs, it would sound quite weird that ALL the evil in them would just depend on their upbringing... So I don't know. My guess is that the result would be an orc having the ideas and thoughts of a human. On a more basic level, I'd guess the orc would still have the instincts and (on some level) the nature of an orc, because they are things you can't change by a good upbringing.
Further on, I wonder how would the orc survive in a human community where (at least hopefully) intelligence is needed to succeed in life...

however humans are cruel and more than likely the orc would be picked on and most likely grow up all the meaner for it

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Well, I found the quote I was looking for.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

"You should try being up here with Shelob for company," said Shagrat.
"I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But war's on now and when that's over things may be easier."
"It's going well they say."
"They would" grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."
"Ah!" said Shagrat. "Like old times."

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
Book 4 - Chapter 10 - The Choices of Master Samwise

Make of that what you will.

Originally Posted by Tolkien
"You should try being up here with Shelob for company," said Shagrat.
"I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But war's on now and when that's over things may be easier."
"It's going well they say."
"They would" grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."
"Ah!" said Shagrat. "Like old times."

Very interesting!