Maiar or Man?

[Glirdan]

Ok, I'm going to get (pretty much) right to the point.

We all know that after the War of the Rings is over, Elrond and Galadriel return to Valinor as they are of the Noldorin race. Arwen gave up her spot on board the ship and Frodo went in her stead. Bilbo went because he was a bearer of a Ring of Power and Cirdan went becasue he was steering the ship. Gandalf returned for two reasons: he bore a Ring of Power and he was of the Maiar.

Now, that all said, my question is this: what happened to Gandalf once he arrived in Valinor once again? Seeing as he died once before after the battle with the Balrog, when he returned to Valinor on board the ship, he was still in the form of (technically) a man. Now, my question, and this is completely a personal belief, is do you believe that Gandalf would have returned to the form in which he had as a Maiar? Or do you believe that he would have died and left the World forever seeing as he was in the form of a Man?

This question has been burning in my mind for quite some time now and I would really like to hear other people's opinon's on the subject.

[Farael]

I really don't think that Gandalf would have died as a man, given that he was an Incarnate Maiar. Had he been a Maiar turned into a man perhaps, but from my understanding his body was sort of the 'container' for his Maiar spirit. We see him die and be re-incarnated which is not what would happen to a Human so I'd think he is still Immortal. Furthermore, I think he's "more" immortal than Elves, who were not really immortal but rather will not die of natural causes. If I'm not mistaken, Maiar are immortal as long as they are good in the face of Eru (which would explain why Gandalf was re-incarnated while the Balrog was not... and it'd also explain how Sauron outright disapeared. Saurman's is a bit different as he is shunned form Valinor and then disapears, and is sort of the exception to my "rule" but the others we know not where they go, so I'd guess that somehow Eru (the only one strong enough to actually KILL them) is involved)

Whether or not he decided to keep his Gandalf form is up to each of us to imagine I guess... I like to think that he would, given that he has experienced a lot of things in such form... at least until Frodo and Bilbo pass away. Of course, he'd live on eternally so maybe at some point he'd become more Maiar and less Gandalf yet Id think he'd stay Gandalf for a couple hundred years at the very least.

[Raynor]

If I'm not mistaken, Maiar are immortal as long as they are good in the face of Eru (which would explain why Gandalf was re-incarnated while the Balrog was not... and it'd also explain how Sauron outright disapeared

Gandalf's return was a unique intervention on behalf of Eru; if the balrog didn't really return (and let's pray he didn't), it is because he couldn't summon any more power to make a new body.

Saurman's is a bit different as he is shunned form Valinor and then disapears, and is sort of the exception to my "rule" but the others we know not where they go, so I'd guess that somehow Eru (the only one strong enough to actually KILL them) is involved

Kill them in what sense? All spirits are indestructible, cf Letter #211.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Kill them in what sense? All spirits are indestructible, cf Letter #211.

Well, Kill wouldn't be the right word perhaps, but they can be "Killed in Arda" (as in vanished from it) I think that Morgoth was "Killed" so was Sauron and Saruman... and the previously mentioned Balrog. They couldn't re-shape, they couldn't really interact with any other living beings and they would not be allowed in Valinor, so Arda had very little left for them. It is safe to assume they vanished from it. Which leads to another question, which is sort of off topic so refrain from answering it here. Wouldn't "The void" be where Eru is as well? I mean, Eru should be everywhere, but wouldn't "The Void" be all but Arda? from my reading of The Silmarillion, it doesn't seem quite as an empty place. At least if you are one of those Maiar

[Kuruharan]

Other than that, well, he probably went uncloaked.

You'll notice how I managed to avoid that mortifying phrase.

[Gurthang]

I think that the choice would be up to him. Once he returned, his task was completed in the fullest. He had rallied the forces of Middle-Earth and had 'pushed' them into defeating Sauron.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that he was bound to his human form only while his task was not yet done. If that is the case, then I would think that he would be able to release that form once he had completed his objective. This makes me believe that he would return to his previous way of existance, which would mean he could freely choose whatever 'clothing' he wanted.

Maiar are like Valar in that they can choose their form, or choose not to have a form (which, in Gandalf's case, would mean going 'uncloaked'. Wow, never thought I'd say that in the Books.) They could look like a human if they wanted, or look like a dwarf, or a bear, or a rock for that matter. You can see that they can be anything by the fact that Ulmo spoke to Turin (I believe I'm right) while appearing clad as (or in) the sea. So they could look like whatever they wanted.

Once he was released from his manly body, he would have been free to be anything or nothing as he desired. I'd tend to agree with Farael in that he would probably be a man when interacting with Bilbo and Frodo. Other than that, well, he probably went uncloaked.

[Kuruharan]

Now, that all said, my question is this: what happened to Gandalf once he arrived in Valinor once again? Seeing as he died once before after the battle with the Balrog, when he returned to Valinor on board the ship, he was still in the form of (technically) a man. Now, my question, and this is completely a personal belief, is do you believe that Gandalf would have returned to the form in which he had as a Maiar? Or do you believe that he would have died and left the World forever seeing as he was in the form of a Man?

Gandalf's body was not really one of "a Man." It only resembled that of an aged Man. In no way did the essence of Gandalf become Mannish or Man-like. Gandalf was a different order of creation.

How long he would have retained the form of Gandalf is difficult to say. Incarnation seems to have been something of a seductive trap for Ainur. Once they got into bodies, some of them displayed a marked reluctance to leave. However, for good Ainur this usually seems to have fallen short of them reaching the point where their spirit is bound to their body and they are crippled without it. In the few examples we have, it seems to have to do with their purpose in wearing the body. Melian abandoned her body and left when Thingol died. The Valar could assume a visible form at will. With them their preferred form seemed to have been more habit and personality than any other consideration. In his days before being Gandalf, Olorin actually showed little inclination to wear a body at all. After his return he may have returned to his earlier preference. However, Bilbo and Frodo, and later Sam, Legolas, and Gimli might have provided him with some reason to retain a familiar form. For as long as he'd been in the form of Gandalf, it might have just become his accustomed habit. He had also performed things like eating, etc., which (if I understand correctly) tended to bind the spirit to the form. However, I seriously doubt he was permanently bound to that form.