What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth?

[littlemanpoet]

What was it that Frodo faced that was worst, for him?

Sam?

Any other character, both in LotR and in any other part of the Legendarium?

What does it say about the character that s/he faced it well or not so well, and so forth?

Feel free to ride this question like the general wave with a wind behind it that if feels like to me....

[Kuruharan]

Frodo -> The Ring

He had to overcome the lust for the Ring. Unfortunately, he was doomed from the beginning because the Ring was bound up in his own desires. He did the best that could be expected of him under the circumstances, and I don't think anybody could say any better of him than that.

Sam -> hmmm...this is a toughie, but I'll say despair

It was only partially despair for himself, which I think is what helped him overcome it. However, he ultimately had to continue knowing that there was no way for himself or Frodo to go back alive. His ultimate virtue was loyalty to something other than himself.

Hurin -> Morgoth

I've already expounded at length on this particular topic, but as a little refresher...

Mere mortal man...stands up to great primeval evil with no hope of rescue or improvement...still never breaks (well, on purpose).

[Farael]

I may say something a little out of the ordinary, but I think that the worst thing Frodo faced was not the Ring itself, but rather the 'knowledge' that even if he saved the Middle-Earth he would not be alive to enjoy it. Up until the last moment when he hesitated due to the power of the Ring itself, he was willing to sacrifice himself and probably his best friend to save The Shire and everyone else he loved, even when he 'knew' he would not be there to enjoy it.

Ultimately he was saved by the Eagles if I'm not mistaken, but even then I got the feeling that although he did survive his Quest, his outlook on the world had changed and he never felt trully happy (at least until he reached Valinor, that I don't know)

Also, I would like to offer my view of the worst thing that one of my favourite characters had to endure. And I'm guessing you will both agree with me and admit that you had never thought about it before (yes, I'm getting cocky)
But I believe Fangorn (the Ent 'leader') had to face a terrible choice. His people were not used to make any kind of "rush" choices yet they decided to confront Saruman in "a hurry" I believe that for him and the other Ents making the choice of going to War in such a short time for their standards must have been a REAL difficult one to make.


Hope I got you thinking over that one!! if not, at least I tried

Farel

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.
Many of them did the right thing because it was the right thing to do in order for future generations to survive...a favorite quote from LOTR sums it up for me:

It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.

Frodo to Sam

Scripture says: greater love has no man than this, that one would lay down his life for another (can't remember the exact quote and my Bible isn't handy here at work!)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Frodo -> The Ring

He had to overcome the lust for the Ring. Unfortunately, he was doomed from the beginning because the Ring was bound up in his own desires. He did the best that could be expected of him under the circumstances, and I don't think anybody could say any better of him than that.

What made this the worst thing? ....as compared to losing the Shire, for example? Or do you see that as tied up in the Ring? I notice, Kuru, that a theme running through at least two of your three examples is that the evil the characters faced was far greater than themeselves, more powerful than they could possibly hope to overmatch. Do we ever face that kind of thing? ... at least by analogy? Or is that mythical?

Originally Posted by Farael

I think that the worst thing Frodo faced was not the Ring itself, but rather the 'knowledge' that even if he saved the Middle-Earth he would not be alive to enjoy it.

So was this mental anguish? Something deeper? How did it affect Frodo?

Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.

This has a sense (to me) built in of being its own reward. Do you see it that way? You see, it suggests that they never lost hope, which means that it wasn't really that bad, because even if they couldn't have it for themselves, they received back to themselves a sense of having done well and becoming part of those who are giving a great gift to those who remain. This doesn't seem bad or sad, yet somehow, in Tolkien this has a sense of being bittersweet and filled with Loss (capital 'l'). Why is that?

[Boromir88]

I have to think that Frodo's biggest problems lie deeper than the Ring. No doubt the Ring was extremely harsh on Frodo and caused him a lot of suffering; both physically and mentally.

However, I think Frodo's biggest problem he faces is actually taking the Ring, which takes great courage. No doubt the actual journey for him to overcome is tough and harsh work, however the act of taking it upon himself to do it, I think was the biggest thing Frodo had to decide.

Frodo is always the type of person to put others above himself. He makes the ultimate sacrifice of staying back in the Shire and living peacefully, living as he always had, vs. taking the ring to Mount Doom and knowing what lies ahead. Frodo was aware of what he had to face (maybe not to the extent he faced, but he knew it wasn't gong to be easy), so I think DECIDING to do it is the biggest thing Frodo had to overcome. And he struggles with it well into the story.

On one side he has going back to the Shire, and just letting the "greater" and "wiser" people handle the ring, this task is too daunting for a hobbit like himself. On the other, he takes the ring and carries the fate of Middle-earth, and all it's races.

Then once he makes the decision he is faced to sticking with it. Many chances he considers turning back and wishes he never came in contact with the Ring, and these are the biggest struggles he has to overcome. The Ring makes it more difficult for him, but I think the real problem was to decide to take the Ring and bear the fate of middle-earth on his shoulders, and then sticking to that decision.

[Farael]

Well Boromir, you have some valid points in there, but I have to say I disagree. I can't get you the exact quote because my LOTR books are in Spanish, but in more than one instance Frodo says that the ring was given to him and therefore it is his obligation to bear with it. So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey. Even if it was a hopeless journey. But as I said before, I believe (and it might just be me) that his greatest difficulty was knowing that even if he succeeded he would probably never come back to see the results of his effort.

Luthien makes a very valid point when she says that the most difficult thing for all the characters was to overcome the "love of self". That's in a way, what I mean. Frodo is making the ultimate sacrifice a living creature can make, namely his or her own life. Yet instead of falling in a battle which takes a comparatively short time (after all, a single battle cannot take longer than a whole day, specially when you are fighting with swords and arrows) Frodo faces a long agony which lasts for months, since he leaves The Shire up until he destroys the ring. As I said, he is saved in the end, but Frodo did not know that would happen and to know that he would die if he failed and die if he succeeded must have been the kind of mental anguish that would drive a man crazy.

Also, I think Boromir said that Frodo could have let the "greater" men (or elves) take care of this whole mess, yet by being able to overcome this anguish Frodo shows that he is as great or even greater than all of the other characters.

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.

[Boromir88]

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.

Yeah, there really is no right or wrong, it's just fun to hear ideas and find things you never considered before.

I'm going to expand on my post about Frodo above, and say something kind of similar to Luthien's "love of self," and that another thing most of the characters (perhaps not all but certainly The Fellowship, Denethor, Theoden...etc) all struggle with is hope.

To lose hope is to lose everything, if you don't have hope what do you have? And I think a lot of the characters struggle with hope.

If my post about Frodo wasn't exactly clear, I hope this will make it better, but I was getting at that Frodo had to battle with losing hope. After deciding to take the Ring to Mount Doom (he may have seen it as his "fate," but he still makes the decision himself), he has to struggle with sticking with that decision. The Ring is sort of a speed bump (grant it a very big speed bump) in the road. Frodo knows the road will be difficult, and the Ring certainly has a big part to play in that. However, despite the Ring, Frodo still has to endure wounds from the Witch-King, Shelob, he has to make the long physical journey to Mordor and into Mount Doom, he has to deal with Gollum, and the Ring is like another bump in the road. The real battle Frodo has to face is losing hope. To turn back and "throw in the towel" so to say. To think, that it's not possible anymore, and he can't do it. When he does lose hope, Sam is there to give it back to him. So, where I was trying to go in the post above (perhaps I didn't really explain it well I think) was Frodo biggest thing to overcome would be hope....to lose it, or not? If he loses hope, it's over...but with hope, anything's possible.

There are also other characters who struggle with losing hope, or not losing it. For some examples Denethor. He went mad and burned himself because he lost hope. He believed it was all over, Sauron was on his doorstep, and victory over him was no longer possible. In Denethor's case, his battle with "hope," he loses it, and it causes his downfall.

Then we have Theoden who triumphs. Instead of going mad and saying it's the end of the world like Denethor, when he's faced with his kingdom on the brink of destruction, Theoden puts his hope and trust with Gandalf and Aragorn. Believing that they will lead him through this. Scattered through The King of the Golden Hall and Helm's Deep, we hear "Now there is hope of victory," and "hope in Gandalf, he knows what he's doing."

Boromir loses hope, but what makes him different from Denethor is he realizes his mistakes. Boromir didn't think the Ring should go to a halfling, he saw no "hope in victory" in giving the Ring to Frodo and waltzing into Mordor. So, he falls and tries to take the Ring. But, what's different from his paps is he realizes he has failed and he doesn't lose hope for Gondor..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people." On his deathbed he puts his hope in Aragorn to save his City.

Gimli was told by Galadriel when he received three strands of her hair that on one path there's darkness, the other path lies hope. That he would have to chose which way to go when the time comes, and if he follows with hope, his hand should flow with gold yet gold will have no dominion over him.

In the Siege of Gondor, Gandalf encourages the men to continue to fight, and continue to have hope.

So, basically, after all this, I'm saying to add on with Luthien's "love of self," that at one point in time all the characters have to struggle with hope. Do they give in to Sauron and his dominating power? Or do they put their hope in faith in people like Gandalf...or Frodo and think that there still is a chance for victory?

Now I'm all "hoped" out.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess
I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by LMP

This has a sense (to me) built in of being its own reward. Do you see it that way? You see, it suggests that they never lost hope, which means that it wasn't really that bad, because even if they couldn't have it for themselves, they received back to themselves a sense of having done well and becoming part of those who are giving a great gift to those who remain. This doesn't seem bad or sad, yet somehow, in Tolkien this has a sense of being bittersweet and filled with Loss (capital 'l'). Why is that?

I suppose overcoming self is rewarding in itself...but the fact of accomplishing it would be so much more than a mere feel-good-about-yourself award. There was no guarantee that their goal would be accomplished even after all their sacrificing, so that "reward" wasn't really theirs. To me, the greater reward received would be the knowledge that you are actively fulfilling the plan for your life. I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

Farael says:

So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey

Also, the opportunities to lose hope and give up along the way were numerous and almost overwhelming for LOTR characters...yet, over and over, they made the choice to deny self. It seems that everytime one of the characters wanted to give up, something happened to renew their hope and courage or someone else helped to refresh their resolve.

For example, in The Land of Shadow chapter:

Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him.

To live this type of life...to continue making choices to do the right thing time after time, one needs hopeful reminders and assurances of something beyond self. So, it is true LMP, that hope need never be lost if you consistently make the choices that keep it alive.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Luthien

I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

But God/Eru is not 'present' for Frodo. He knows nothing about anything 'beyond the circles of the World'. It seems that Frodo is constantly 'backed into a corner' & the choices he makes are between going ahead with the Quest or just giving up & losing everything. He has no concept of 'Heaven' or that he is 'serving Eru'. In a real sense his case is worse than that of Job - Job at least knew of & had faith in God (petty & tetchy as the God of the book of Job may be).

What I'm saying is that any sense of 'satisfaction' & 'completion' is absent from Frodo's experience during his life in Middle-earth. Eru may as well not exist at all - if Middle-earth was an entirely 'pagan' world, or a world which came into being 'randomly' Frodo would be in the same psychological position. He does nothing for Eru - he acts only for others around him. Even when he goes to the Havens he doesn't see it as a 'stage' in a journey towards 'Heaven' or in his service to God. The end of Frodo's journey (in his own mind) is death. Tolkien suggested in one of his letters that the journey into the West may be read as an allegory (yes, he uses that word) of death.

As somene recently suggested to me, Frodo is like one of the young men of Tolkien's generation who went to fight in WW1. Most of them went not because they felt they were living out God's plan for them, but because they felt obligated to 'do their bit' for their country, their family & ther friends. Many of them lost their lives, their health, their hope, but they felt they had 'done the right thing'. Like Frodo, they had given up the things they loved & cared for, not for God, or for a heavenly reward, but simply 'so that others could keep them'.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks, all, for taking this discussion in such interesting directions.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

To lose hope is to lose everything, if you don't have hope what do you have? And I think a lot of the characters struggle with hope.

So despair is the worst thing.

Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self.

Selfishness.

Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess

To me, the greater reward received would be the knowledge that you are actively fulfilling the plan for your life.

I like this.

Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess

So, it is true LMP, that hope need never be lost if you consistently make the choices that keep it alive.

But who can actually be so consistent? Everybody fails. In fact, every single member of the Fellowship made mistakes, maybe even Gandalf (if one can say that it was a mistake to go into Moria).

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes.

Now now, Kuru, don't be coy. Please illustrate.

Originally Posted by Kuru

I'm not clear that by the end (particularly after his Cirith Ungol experience) Frodo had hope. I think it was more of an act of will on his part to continue the journey and resist the Ring without hope.

My readings of LotR lead me to agree with Kuru on this point. In Mordor, Frodo himself says that he has no hope. I think we can take him at his word. He is moving forward on will alone. When he loses strength, it is Sam's strength of hope and will, that literally carries Frodo onward.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Whichever decision Arwen makes, she is doomed to be permanently parted from either her father or her betrothed.

The worst thing for Arwen, then, having to permanently choose between to loved ones.

As Mithalwen notes, Gimli finds his meeting with, and parting from, Galadriel, to be his greatest peril, his worst thing to face. But was it?

As Lush said, the worst thing for Denethor was his despair after losing first his wife, then his eldest son.

Originally Posted by Farael

By killing Faramir, [Denethor] owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself.

Do you really think so? I find this to be an interesting thought. Would Denethor really own Faramir? Or would he only believe that he did?

Originally Posted by Lalwende

It might be useful to compare two Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

Huh? What do you mean? How can he not cope? It seems to me that he copes most successfully, and finally succumbs only because of the sheer immensity of the burden.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by LMP

Do you really think so? I find this to be an interesting thought. Would Denethor really own Faramir? Or would he only believe that he did?

I do not think he could actually own Faramir's destiny as we see in the story that Faramir is saved and Denethor dies, so Denethor was only responsible for his own destiny. Yet if he had succeeded and burned Faramir along with himself then maybe we could argue that, as Denethor chose to kill Faramir before knowing the outcome of his desease, he truncated his destiny.

Now, I trully believe that we are the masters of our own destiny and if someone else takes control of our destiny then he is taking control of our lives and ourselves. So I guess it might be me putting those thoughts into Denethor who is only acting out of despair

Also we should take into account that Denethor was overwhelmed not only by despair but by the influence of Sauron. Maybe those thoughts were implanted in his mind by the Dark Lord and responted to no concisous or unconscious reasoning by Denethor.

Still, I do not think Denethor had completlely lost his mind either to Sauron or despair. He is fairly lucid, someone who has lost hope would probably not oppose Gandalf when he storms in to stop him. I believe that Denethor was so afraid of loosing the last important person in his life that he decided to kill him and himself so that he would not have to suffer a new separation. That way, him and his son would share a common destiny chosen by Denethor.

i still think Turins whole story is the saddest

[mormegil]

I must start a new idea here, one that came to me today in my reading. It is that Samwise had to overcome his loyalty and love to Frodo. At Cirith Ungol when he knew the task needed to succeed but to do so he would leave Frodo, even though he thought him dead, it was the worst part of his life to make that decision.

He had such an abounding sense of loyalty to Frodo, and Frodo alone in this matter, that he was more than willing to give his own life if it meant saving Frodo's. He felt no fear or hesitation to attack Shelob, go in Anduin (which for him was a big deal) or do any other things on the task if it was requisite to help Frodo including beginning to go over the cliff at the Ephel Dúath, which Tolkien remarks as Samwise's most courageous moment. My point in this is that Samwise was fiercely loyal to Frodo and then to have to abandon him next to the orcs and Shelob was nearly too great a burden for him. So for him to overcome that trial was a demonstration of his quality. This was truly the one of the pinnacles for his character. Being able to put his own feelings aside and do what is needed to save Middle-earth

Another problem that Sam faced, though lesser in degree and intensity, was his self-doubt and lack of confidence in himself.

[Farael]

Excelent thoughts about Sam. I agree with everything BUT him lacking self-confidence. I think that in his own way, he believed on himself, or else he would not have gone to save Frodo or taken the ring himself to try to finish the quest.