Tolkien and Norse Mythology

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This thread is dedicated to Norse Mythology and where it can be seen in the work of Tolkien.

I think it would be interesting to discuss, simulareties and differences between The myth's that inspired Tolkien and his own work.

It could be anything from the similarities in names, the road to the undying lands. The character of Odin and which part’s of his personality can be seen in the different characters, too the impotance of rings.

One of the main inspirations from Norse Mythology is the Vølsung Saga witch manly focus on Sigurd Fafnersbane. Therefore it would be worthy to include in the discussion. (re-written as the Nibelungenlied and again later by Wagner)

If you are not familiar with the saga you can read it in the
Edda
The Danish History by Saxo Grammaticus, written in the early years of the 13th Century. (The first many books are old myths and not real history)
Here<--------------- Probably the best. Or you can read Tolkiens Ring by David Day

When I find a decent page with all the Norse Myths I will post the link.

Here is an encyclopedia of Norse Mythology
(thanks Shelob)

Edit: Ok Shelob has providet me with a decent site witch contains most of the myths from the Norse Mythology.
Have fun reading it.

[Gothmog]

Interesting topic this! But to be honest, I know too little about my own history (myhology is maybe a better word). I read somewhere that it's strange that people from Scandinavia know more about Greek and Roman mythology than the Norse. I totally agree and this is the case with me, unfortunately.

But Rune told me earlier about his plans to start this thread and after the discussion about Gandalf's name in a thread forgotten by me for the moment, I looked up Volsung Saga on the net and started reading. Alas, there's too little time for me to read what I want to right now. I have to study most of my free time. Therefore I've only read the first 10 chapters of the story, but I have already found some interesting things.

The first one was the sword stuck in the tree trunk in chapter III. Then the man worthy of the sword drew it out of the trunk without an effort, while others had tried thay best without moving it one inch. This made me think of King Arthur and Excalibur. The connection between old Norse tales and those of England becomes obvious here. Interesting as bot the Norse and the Old English tales where of great interest to Tolkien.

The other thing i noticed is in chapter V, where ten brothers are chained out in the wood and an evil she-wolf eats them one after an other, one per night. This story is so close to what happened Beren, Finrod Felagund and their ten companions in Tol-in-Gaurhoth where they, as you probably know, was cast into a deep dungeon and a werewolf came to tham each night and devoured one of them. It was a different outcome in these two cases and there was different reasons for Saurons (revealing who was Felagund/Beren) and King Siggeir (to punish the brothers) but the similarities are striking. For me an obvious example of things Tolkien got from Norse Mythology.

Maybe I'll be back for more if I have time to read more, but for now this is all I can contribute with.

P.S. Here's a site containing the Volsung Saga, the Kalevala, the Younger and Elder Edda, Boewulf etc. Maybe it's not better than those presented by Rune but anyway...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Interesting topic this! But to be honest, I know too little about my own history (myhology is maybe a better word). I read somewhere that it's strange that people from Scandinavia know more about Greek and Roman mythology than the Norse. I totally agree and this is the case with me, unfortunately.

It is realy a shame, the Volsung Saga should be our Illiade. In Denmark some teachers is starting to use more time on Norse Mythology than Christianety, with is not a lot but. . .

Originally Posted by Gothmog

The first one was the sword stuck in the tree trunk in chapter III. Then the man worthy of the sword drew it out of the trunk without an effort, while others had tried thay best without moving it one inch. This made me think of King Arthur and Excalibur. The connection between old Norse tales and those of England becomes obvious here. Interesting as bot the Norse and the Old English tales where of great interest to Tolkien.

I have noticed this too and it is quite obvius, but if you look closer on the tree characthers Aragorn, Arthur ang Sigurd they have a lot in common.
1) They are all orphans. 2) they are heirs to kingdoms that have been taken/destroyed. 3) All there fathers was slain. 4) There up bringing is among nobels 5) all of them has to overcome tasks allmost impossibel to get the woman they love. 6) all these women is tragic characthers.

In one way Sigurd is quite different: He is pre-christian and more babaric. Aragorn is supposed to be pre-christian as well, but his character clearly shows some of the same qualetys as Arthur. In some ways he actuall seems to fulfill the christian ideals more than Arthur.

(there is allso some other simulareties between the swords in the tales)

Originally Posted by Gothmog

The other thing i noticed is in chapter V, where ten brothers are chained out in the wood and an evil she-wolf eats them one after an other, one per night. This story is so close to what happened Beren, Finrod Felagund and their ten companions in Tol-in-Gaurhoth where they, as you probably know, was cast into a deep dungeon and a werewolf came to tham each night and devoured one of them. It was a different outcome in these two cases and there was different reasons for Saurons (revealing who was Felagund/Beren) and King Siggeir (to punish the brothers) but the similarities are striking. For me an obvious example of things Tolkien got from Norse Mythology.
.

Spot on Gothmog, really nothing to add. I belive that later in the tale we will see the Sigurd use the skin of a werewolf in quest, like Beren (and Luthien) did in after the insident of what you speak.

P.S. I will elaborate some of the things I have statet tomorrow.

[Lalaith]

Put "Norse" into the search engine and you should get a fair amount of stuff already talked about on here.

One of my favourite Old Norse poems has got a lot of Tolkienesque themes in it: there is a cursed sword, Tyrfing, made by the dwarf Dwalin - a Viking daughter travels to a haunted barrow to claim it from her dead father...here's a translation by WH Auden: (scroll past the hideous illustration)
http://meadhall.homestead.com/Angantyr.html

[Laitoste]

I recall, when I first read a prose version of this tale, Sigurd reminded me of Turin. I ended up writing a paper on this very topic. At the moment, however, I have 4 pages left to write about the Albigensian Crusade and no access to said paper, so a longer post is coming...though perhaps I will need to completely revise my opinions, as this is coming from two years ago...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Laitoste

I recall, when I first read a prose version of this tale, Sigurd reminded me of Turin. I ended up writing a paper on this very topic. At the moment, however, I have 4 pages left to write about the Albigensian Crusade and no access to said paper, so a longer post is coming...though perhaps I will need to completely revise my opinions, as this is coming from two years ago...

I have allready spoken about some simularetys between Sigurd and Aragorn, but you are very much correct in mentioning the simularetys between Sigur and Turin. To be frank they look very much alike in several ways.

Both grew up without a father, Sigurds was dead and Turins held captive, this may not be significant in it self, but it is quite important when we look at there life span. Both where heir's to kingdoms taken by force, this let to both of them growing up as fosterling's. Under his stay in Doriath Turin becomes proberbly the greatest worrior of his time, more or less the same happens to Sigurd who is taken in by the king of the danes, but soon he becomes the fosterling of Regin the master smith. (who one might recogninse in Telchar). Then they both proove them selves in varius tests, with Turin as the one who expiriences the most.

The thing that makes us see them as the same character is however the fact that they both kill a dragon. Turin kills Galurung and Sigurd kills Fafner, therefor the nam Sigurd the dragon slayer or Sigurd fafnersbane.

After the killing of Fafner Sigurd posseses his treasur wich is cursed, so that everybody who takes the treasure in posetion shall die! (not of old age) Now they have yet a thing in common, they are both cursed.

The love life of the two is allso a tradic tale. Turin weds his sister and when they realise they take there own lives. Sigurd rescues and falls in love with a valkyrie, (maybe she is just a shield maiden, can't remember. Anyway her name is Brynhilde) but is by witch craft made to forget her and fall In love with another woman. The valkyrie allso forgets. However Sigurds friend prince Gunnar desires the valkyrie , but she is still "captive" and only the bravest man can save/marry her. Sigurd exchanged shapes with Gunnar, rode through the flames, and won Brynhild for Gunnar. When the valkyrie finds out she has been tricked, she gets sigurd killed and then kills her self.

At last some random resemblance between the saga and the works of Tolkien.

Both Sigurd and Turin kills the one who was closest to them, Sigurd however dos it on purpos.

The main artifact of the dwarven treasur that Sigur takes was a ring who createt ever more welth to it's owner. (kind of a lesser Draupner)

P.S. Eowyn is clearly inspred by the Shield Maiden's of norse mythology

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Spot on Gothmog, really nothing to add. I belive that later in the tale we will see the Sigurd use the skin of a werewolf in quest, like Beren (and Luthien) did in after the insident of what you speak.

That's true, but instead of going on a perilous journey with the most honourable task in mind, they use the wolf form to kill (more or less)innocent men and steal all their gold. A bit more barbaric, but they were Vikings after all...

But I must ask you Rune, are we supposed to concentrate on on the Volsung Saga here or is the thread open for every kind of discussions? Comparing Rohirrim with the Vikings could be interesting as that's a connection often made. But the thread could end up a bit...chaotic. It's a wide topic, Norse Myths and Tolkien's work.

And one last thing, more on topic: the sword from the tree trunk is later broken (it's owner, King Sigmund, dies at the same time), but will be reforged with a different name. Sounds familiar? (Elendil-Narsil/Anduril of course)

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

The first one was the sword stuck in the tree trunk in chapter III. Then the man worthy of the sword drew it out of the trunk without an effort, while others had tried thay best without moving it one inch. This made me think of King Arthur and Excalibur. The connection between old Norse tales and those of England becomes obvious here. Interesting as bot the Norse and the Old English tales where of great interest to Tolkien.

A slight clarification, Gothmog, which, as an Arthur-nut, I feel honour-bound to reel off. The King Arthur cycles aren't really English myth; they have Celtic roots and were later taken up and elaborated by the French Angevin Kings and their troubadours for political reasons. Arthur had been a conqueror of the English; so had the Normans and most recently Henry of Anjou by his victory over his uncle Stephen. For these reasons it became convenient to flag up the Arthurian tales lying dormant among the bards of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany.

So, while some later interpolations into the legend, like the superb Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (of which Tolkien wrote a translation, not the best one in my view), were written by Englishmen in a more English tradition, the heart of the legend is in Wales and Brittany, and some of its most compelling details derive from France. That's why Tolkien was ambivalent about the Arthurian tradition; he saw it as not truly English, and so not the true mythology of England. (This seems like a good point until you consider that Britain is far older than England...but Tolkien could never quite reconcile himself with the curious Celts...)

The English material that Tolkien loved is more specifically Anglo-Saxon, like Beowulf and so on.

Just here to help, I hope...

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

A slight clarification, Gothmog, which, as an Arthur-nut, I feel honour-bound to reel off. The King Arthur cycles aren't really English myth; they have Celtic roots and were later taken up and elaborated by the French Angevin Kings and their troubadours for political reasons. Arthur had been a conqueror of the English; so had the Normans and most recently Henry of Anjou by his victory over his uncle Stephen. For these reasons it became convenient to flag up the Arthurian tales lying dormant among the bards of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany.

Actually I knew that. Not in detail, but the fact that the story of King Arthur was originally celtic and "remade" by the Normans. I simplified things by skipping that explanation, but you're right of course. Thank you!

Of what I have undertood, this is one of the reasons Tolkien wanted to write about ME like a myth, not just some fantasy story. The lack of true english mythology, as the inhabitants of Britains has changed to much for a single mythology to evolve. The Celtic-Saxo-Norman mix wasn't satisfying enough. And even the Celts weren't the first in place, right? I think I've read about the Picts in Scotland, a people that got mixed up with the Celts and considered a part of them after a while. But I'm sure there are other's that know more about these things than I do, so I'll leave it there...

[Anguirel]

The thing is, in my view that "unsatisfying" mix is what makes British legend beautiful; and what makes Tolkien beautiful, as, willingly or not, he inherited it. It isn't a question of frequent invasions spoiling British, or English if you prefer, mythology, but rather enriching it. I know I'm sounding frightfully politically correct and multi-cultural, but I really do mean it and as a Scoto-Persian-Oxfordian I believe I have the right to say it...

Further, this lack of cohesion in myth is not a phenomenon unique to Britain. Egyptian mythology contains a host of varying faces of gods within the larger deities, and the servants of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun killed each other deciding which aspects, with legends, which stories had the greatest authority. They set the precedent. In that cradle of myth, that beautiful, hilly, scattered, peculiarly shaped land Greece, every island and hilltop had different songs, and gave particular, local gods and heroes predominance.

And so in Italy, in Ireland, and yes, in Scandinavia too. And of course in Tolkien. Hybridity is what makes it breathe; it's not a pure-bred Aragorn but a mongrel Butterbur in terms of derivation, and good for it!

[Lalaith]

An aside about Arthur and the Picts:
Arthur has no children. Gawain, (and Gareth and Gaheris) one of the earliest knights/heroes to be associated with Arthur, is his nephew, the son of his sister. The would-be ursurper Mordred, another very early element in the Arthur legend, is the son of Morgana le Fay, often described as another sister of Arthur.
The Picts practiced a curious pattern of inheritance: the kingship was inherited through the king's sister, so the nephew, not the son, would be the new ruler.


But back to the Norse: I've mentioned before the notion of the "dark hero" in saga literature, which always reminded me of the cursed children of Hurin. (Grettir the Strong, for example, wrestled with a ghost called Glumr and was cursed by him, after which nothing ever went right for him and he became an outlaw.)

The Valar seem more like the Aesir/Vanir to me than the Graeco-Roman gods. For example, Vaire, the weaver who depicts past, present and future, is reminiscent of the Norns, who weave fate into their tapestries.