Calling all women

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I need help from BDers of the feminine type: the ladies, the maids. The Lasses of the Downs! The gals, girls, gurls...the women.

I was leading a seminar today in which we were discussing R.L. Stevenson's masterwork Treasure Island and much to my chagrin I was told, by the vast majority of the women in the class, that they did not like the book, as it was "a boy's adventure."

But wait, it gets worse. Much worse.

One of these objecting members of what I shall never call the gentler-sex went on to add that the only other book on the syllabus "as bad as this is The Hobbit."



A spirited discussion ensued as I inquired after the opinions of the other women in the class. Imagine my horror when I realised that the women, almost en masse, did not like The Hobbit because it is, like Treasure Island, a "boy's adventure" with little to offer girls.

I am assuming that everyone who reads this post will be a fan of TH and that many of those who read this post will also be women. So please, can you explain to me:

1) what these women are talking about?

2) why you like the book, despite your being a woman?

3) how I can present The Hobbit in class in such a way as to engage those women who find it so unappealing?

[tar-ancalime]

I haven't got time right now, but I'm going to chew on this for a while and try to give you a more reasoned reply.

To start with, though:

Imagine teaching "Little Women" to fifty teenaged boys.

Sometimes it's just difficult to invest in a story in which People Like You don't appear at all. Gender is not like race--I can read Chinua Achebe and not feel marginalized by the relative lack of white people in the story, for geographical and other reasons. But gender transcends geography: there are female hobbits, Elves, and Dwarves, to say nothing of female PEOPLE all over the world. A story that doesn't include any is making a strong statement.

A story like The Hobbit, which effectively ignores half the population of the world, can be hard to relate to despite its (many) other virtues.

Note to everyone: I AM NOT SAYING TOLKIEN WAS A SEXIST; merely that there aren't a lot of women in The Hobbit. (Are there any at all? I don't have my copy here at the office, and as it's my least favorite of Tolkien's works it's been a while since I read it).

Perhaps your female students are finding it difficult to engage with stories that just aren't about them, period, full stop. Please note, though, that this is not something you necessarily need to remedy in regard to the works in question. They need to be able to stretch their minds and get into these less-readily-accessible (to them) stories--that's what learning is about, isn't it?. In addition, the literary canon (and genre fiction, and movies, and theatre) is chock-full of stories that Just Aren't About Women. If they're ever going to read, watch, or listen to a story, they've got to get used to it.

I'll note that there are also a lot of stories that Just Aren't About Men, but I've found that men are much better able simply to avoid these (sometimes by relegating them to some kind of secondary-genre status...but that's a whole other discussion, not even remotely Tolkien-related, so I'll just screw the top back on that can of worms if I may), while not depriving themselves of literature, film, etc.

I haven't really addressed the question of how to approach The Hobbit, but I hope I've shed some light on what they may be thinking.

Then again, maybe they jsut didn't do the reading and are looking for an easy way out by claiming to be oppressed. (I wasn't this cynical before I had students of my own. )

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Before I answer seriously, I feel that I must, for the sake of posterity, cry out in outrage that "They do not like The Hobbit?! What is wrong with them???" I must also, again for that pesky posterity, begin with "Tolkien wasn't sexist." And if he was, I don't care because his books kicked donkey. The End.

1) what these women are talking about?

I agree with tar-ancalime about the lack of accessibility. The Hobbit is very much a book about boys that would appeal very much to boys: a bunch of male Dwarves show up to a male hobbit's house under the influence of a male wizard. They then proceed to go travelling, meeting up with male Elves, male goblins, male Gollum, male Beorn, male Men, and there's a war full of males fighting. There is the slaying of a dragon (by a man) and then Bilbo eventually makes his way home in the company of that pesky male wizard. There's not even the traditional beautifully pedistal-placed woman that somebody or everybody somehow loves. No fiesty heroine, no lover, no goddess... pretty much the only "woman" in The Hobbit is Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, and we all know how those Sackville-Bagginses are viewed. To a group of women that may not be all together enthusiastic about adventure stories in the first place, they may likely also fail to be excited by a story that seems to show women in such a non-important and simply "annoying" light.

2) why you like the book, despite your being a woman?

I like... nope... strike that, incorporate "love" in place of it. I love The Hobbit because it isn't a typical novel that involves some bit of love. It's a children's story sure, but it isn't a Disney story spiced up with rated G romance or something. It doesn't need to have random girls included. The story shouldn't be seen as "it doesn't have girls", it should be seen as "it has boys". I am very fond of dragons and gold, and singing Elves (tra la la lally is canonical, it is!), and Dwarves and magic spells and Rings and Eagles. I loved how Gandalf "tricked" Beorn with the story-telling, and I loved Beorn's gruff responses. I enjoyed Bilbo's trolls and how they were vanquished.

The Hobbit is an afternoon's read for me. While when reading The Lord of the Rings, I feel that I am in the novel and tend to be touched by the more moving passages. It is an actual experience any time reading, and while I love that, there are times that I feel more like being a spectator. With The Hobbit, I tend to feel that I am floating above the action and laughing and groaning in all of the appropriate places without being too caught up in it. It is a fun adventure to enjoy on a rainy day. It is innocent fun with no sexual intrigues and no betrayals or pesky backstabbings. I like The Hobbit for the sheer childishness of it. Growing up with older brothers, I spent more time on adventures out of doors than I ever did playing house. The idea of a story that I can read and enjoy is like a trip down the overly-used memory lane: I remember slaying my own dragons as well as sword fights and Elves that just happened to inhabit my back yard. The Hobbit brings to mind the simpler times before boys became such a big part of life and thought.

3) how I can present The Hobbit in class in such a way as to engage those women who find it so unappealing?

Ah, the hard question. The first thing to do, I suppose, is to find out just what they are looking for in a book. Do you know, perchance?

[Alphaelin]

Fordim,

While I entirely understand the response of the females in your class to Treasure Island (I am sorry, but I have never liked books involving ships and the sea -- I loathed Moby Dick and The old man and the Sea , too), I share your horror at their dismissal of TH as 'a boy's adventure'. While it would probably get you fired to say so, it sounds to me like the girls are being a bit sexist!

1) what these women are talking about?
Okay, it sounds like they find TH as unengaging as Treasure Island based on the fact that there are No Women. There's nothing you can do about the characters JRRT used in the book.

An additional factor may be what they have been used to reading. One of the great disappointments of my life is that my girls have never indicated any interest in the good literature I and my parents have tried to provide them with over the years. They rejected Swiss Family Robinson (the greatest non-Tolkien kids' adventure book ever!), Little Women, and The Secret Garden among others, instead preferring to read drivel like the Babysitters Club. I have no idea how old your students are, but if their formative years were spent reading books where the big conflict is if Susie should 'fess up to sneaking to the beach without permission, then yes, TH and TI are both going to be more intense than they are prepared to deal with. Again nothing you can do about this.

2) why you like the book, despite your being a woman?
A great deal of my affection for TH, and eventually to Tolkien in general can be traced to my introduction to the book. An otherwise vile sixth grade teacher concluded that my class was the perfect captive audience and read it aloud to us over several months. She was an expressive reader who made the characters come alive. We also discussed the book at points, so were made aware of how Bilbo grows and develops as he leaves comfort and civilisation further and further behind, and Tolkien's use of different characters and situations (at least as well as eleven-year-olds could discuss those subjects.)

3) how I can present The Hobbit in class in such a way as to engage those women who find it so unappealing?
Seriously, do you have time to read any passages aloud? I finally read TH to my younger daughter and that did the trick. She loved having me read it to her, -- we went on to FOTR and are now part-way through TTT. Even my super-cool teenager would come in to listen. Don't let your students read alound first unless any of them are also good expressive readers, or it will come out "Blah blah hole in the ground blah blah hobbit" or "Inaholeinthegroundtherelivedahobbit." Maybe introduce the book by reading the first paragraphs aloud? Perhaps offer to let your students read passages as you go through the chapters? Read a wee little section each day to start things off? I know they aren't as young as I was, and my daughter is, but TH is a delightful oral and aural experience at any age. And it's fun to make Thorin sound a bit like the Grand Poobah.

I don't know if any of this is at all practical for your situation, but I hope there's something there you can use.

[Alphaelin]

Forgive me for posting again, but another thought hit me:

Don't be afraid to show your own enthusiasm for your subject matter. The two best teachers I ever had were a Latin teacher in high school who loved her subject so much the Latin Club was one of the most popular student organizations we had, and a Classics professor in college who gave me a lasting fondness for Homer and Greek mythology with his vivid descriptions of the action. (He's another one who used reading aloud, and even acting out scenes, to get us involved.)

Both teachers approached their subjects with a sense of humor, too, and weren't afraid to joke about them.

Okay, I promise I'll stop now.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thank you for the responses. Informed and informative all.

To clarify, this is a third-year university course so the students are all in their early twenties, so youth and utter inexperience is not an excuse. I have, in the past taught many of these same students (we're a small university) and in those courses we did study Achebe and other non-Anglo-American writers and never once did I run into a situation like this where they simply complained that it was a "bad book"...not just, "inaccessible" but "bad'.

Fea: I simply adore your way of expressing it -- The story shouldn't be seen as "it doesn't have girls", it should be seen as "it has boys" -- I am going to say precisely that to my group the next time we meet!

What most shocked me was the instantly closed minds that the women chose to adopt. If presented with a novel about a different culture they would instantly use that opportunity to understand that culture; to engage with its strangeness to begin a dialogue. But they show none of the same interest in doing so across the gender gap. I am definitely going to ask them why this might be...

Alphaelin: enthusiasm for the material and in my delivery is my calling-card. If I have a problem in this regard it would be in sometimes getting too caught up in the material! And I seize every opportunity to read aloud at the class.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I need help from BDers of the feminine type: the ladies, the maids. The Lasses of the Downs! The gals, girls, gurls...the women.

If I may, Professor Hedgethistle, I believe you have omitted one other class of this chromosome grouping, the Grrrls.

Originally Posted by FH

Alphaelin: enthusiasm for the material and in my delivery is my calling-card. If I have a problem in this regard it would be in sometimes getting too caught up in the material! And I seize every opportunity to read aloud at the class.

With your experience in the classroom and the academic skills centre, I'm sure you might have considered this possibility even though you don't mention it here. What of the possibility that these students chose the book you might be the most passionate about to have a bit of sport with your enthusiastic delivery? After all, you have some local notoriety as a Tolkien man. Not unheard of of course for students to do this.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

After all, you have some local notoriety as a Tolkien man. Not unheard of of course for students to do this.

M'lady Beth of the Berries brings up a good point. One of my professors is a feminist that seems to view attempted male domination in everything... so when she gets unbearable, the entire class pitches in with comments such as "This book sucked. There weren't enough boys in it." just to annoy her and cause her to rant. You can also get her off topic really easily by comparing the book-world to our world, but that's another story. The point is... sometimes it's fun to mess with your professors. Even in highschool I made a point to let my old English teacher know how crummy his beloved Steinbeck's works were, or I'd comment on just how awesome *insert controversial politician here* happened to be to get my old US history teacher to schpeal. It really didn't matter if I actually thought what I said, it was more fun to see what they had to say about it.

As for 'girl' books tending to have strong male characters, it's true. But they aren't always nice guys. I mean... Rochestor kept his crazy wife locked in the attic and then tried to marry somebody else. And in the end, m'loves, he was blind and relied almost entirely on the girl. Talk about grrl power.

See, while in "boy" books, girls are often simply ignored, in "girl" books, boys are triumphed over, whether directly or indirectly, leaving the girls as the heroes of the story. Seems that we care far more than they do, doesn't it.

But as I can't think of a single book with no boys in it, I think I'll go out and write one. After all, that's what it takes for it to happen.

Fea: any time you feel the need for a change of school, feel free to transfer to where I teach and you can be in any of my classes! What a neat paper you've written.

*blushes a little* I'm just glad you didn't post a thread about Freud. If I'd recycled my bit of mischeif about psychoanalytic theory, I'd probably get in a wee bit of trouble as this is such a nice family friendly site and my paper leans towards the hilariously risque side when it comes to that section of literary criticism. I was a lot nicer to the feminists, and to be quite honest, I'm very relieved that my professor has a good sense of humor.

[Lush]

They are both just as good and all this feministic hoolaboola. It just annoys me.

"Feministic"? The word is "feminist," and I'm afraid that Fordim's students are not engaging in feminist discourse.

Now, on to the actual topic:

1) what these women are talking about?

The divisions of literature into "women's literature" and "everything else" has been an unfortunate trend that we are not done reacting against, I'm afraid. As Lalaith pointed out, a lot of men and boys are still conditioned to dismiss books written by female authors and/or featuring female protagonists outright. I'm willing to bet that at least several of your students have, in the meantime, been conditioned to respond to male authors and male characters in such a way that perpetuates the literary gender divide, rather than addressing it in a meaningful manner.

Furthermore, and this is just a guess on my part, this could be just a sloppy attempt at literary criticism. Sometimes, when people have little to say about a certain work, they resort to thoughtless buzz-words and cliches.

2) why you like the book, despite your being a woman?

I actually bought the book so that I could read it out loud to my little brother, having heard that it was a great children's story. Well, what do you know, my brother was completely disinterested.

I, on the other hand, had read LotR by then, and was intrigued by the origins of the story.

What really drew me in, however, had more to do with the fact that I'm a fan of children's stories and fairy tales and adventure in general. For me, these books serve a very specific purpose, they make me smile. The issue of not being able to relate to a certain [male] character never comes up. After all, I can't imagine my little brother being able to fully relate to a Hobbit who lives in a hole in the ground either. It seems to me that both genders ought to approach these tales with a set of demands that is much different from our expectations for writers such as Kate Atkinson or Vladimir Nabokov.

3) how I can present The Hobbit in class in such a way as to engage those women who find it so unappealing?

Well, I suppose if the initial hurdle really is gender, you can always ask the class what kind of books they do like. Does any one of these young women have a soft spot for, say, Joanne Rowling and her lovely male wizard? Do they like Cervantes? Paulo Coehlo? Any of them enjoy Heaney's re-telling of "Beowulf"? Surely by way of these examples you can get them to see that one should first and foremost criticize a work of literature on its merit, as opposed to using gendered buzz-words to create a quick splash of controversy. If none of them end up liking The Hobbit, that should be perfectly fine (right?), as long as they articulate their reasons well and actually generate a thoughtful discussion on the topic.

[Holbytlass]

But to get back to what is most interesting to me: I really would like to hear from you all (the women) what it is that you love about The Hobbit. I'm interested in seeing if perhaps there are things there that I don't appreciate it as I've been reading it all my life as a Boy...

I really had to think about this one.....
I like The Hobbit for my two main reasons why I like other "children's literature", notably Little House on the Prairie books and Redwall series.

1)They are all based on "simpler" times than today. I like how basic life was for the characters (aside from the adventure itself). Aspects of life that aren't really seen anymore, for instance, I love how Bilbo has so many hooks in the front hall for visiters that might pop by. Nowadays everything is so scheduled, even children's play is scheduled with "play dates", so far I have not had a "Can Tiffany come out and play?" and she's ten!

I realize I "romanticize" that time but I do envy it also.

2)I like the adventure part also, I am very much for escapism at least mentally, through a book. I notice very few beings who are on quests or epics are tied down with a spouse/children and for good reason. I do crave an "adventure" even maybe a life or death kind of thing but not now, when this point in my life I am commited to my family.

I don't know if that will help at all, but there it is for me.

[Lalwendë]

Confessions of a Grrrl...

To start from the last question, I doubt there is much you could do to get your class to appreciate The Hobbit to the same degree that you do. I've tried to convert many a person to Tolkien and it is certainly not easy because so many have prejudices about his work. That's a danger with teaching something you really love, that 'they' will knock it down.

When you are talking about a class of students then peer pressure might have taken effect. Having been a female undergraduate, I have been through the pressure to conform, to say the right thing in class, to appear knowledgeable about 'grown-up, serious' issues, to be appreciated for my considered opinions. To openly declare my admiration for Plath was a wonderful thing and it was in no way feigned; I remember (shamefully, now) pursuing another student in a rigorous Plath discussion when I became suspicious that she was a 'bluffer' and merely trying to appear 'correct'. Likewise, I kept my head down in discussions on Middlemarch because I found the book utterly tedious and couldn't be bothered reading beyond the first 50 pages, but I would have been mortified if anyone had known I was a bluffer*. I'm sure any 'Downer who has been through, or indeed is, at University will agree that there can be tremendous intellectual peer pressure.

What are they talking about? They are University students and being asked to read texts with a critical eye, with the conscious mind, instead of just grabbing a book off a shelf through free will and just reading. They read each text to find things, to collect ideas they can give in response to their teacher. They read texts in the same way I read a policy paper (though are more likely to get some pleasure from their reading ). One of those critical 'eyes' will be trained to collect perceptions on gender, just as I might use an 'eye' for inherent risks in a plan.

There is a lot of literature which is aimed squarely at specific gender groups. Some of it is utter trash, and some of it is pernicious. I find the Bridget Jones films funny, but the 'image' of Bridget Jones is now imprinted on the minds of men who think we are all neurotic about our knickers. Cheers. It has also spawned miles of pulp that I hate. But equally, there are many works which are also 'women's literature which I have enjoyed, e.g. Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit. I think it down to what we identify with. I am not given to being neurotic about what men think of me, so I don't identify with Bridget Jones, but I do know a lot about strange Northern towns and the culture of the Chapel, so I like Jeanette Winterson's novel.

However, I do realise that me being able to identify or not with a character or situation in a novel is not the ultimate deciding factor on whether I will enjoy it or not. I admit I will use that line as an intellectual excuse for not liking something which others get a lot of pleasure out of. It could be that this class is using this as an excuse for simply not liking The Hobbit (or more likely the thought of having to read it).

Why do I like The Hobbit? The simple answer is because I've always liked folk tales, myths, legends, poems about magical things and so on. I was brought up on these. As a child I loved Brer Rabbit, Rupert The Bear, Alice In Wonderland (though I had to read this myself as my father hated it and refused to read it to me), Goblin Market, Godzilla, Battle of the Planets, The Faraway Tree, The Phoenix and the Carpet etc etc.... But I think there is more to it. I also used to enjoy the Katy Did books, and Mallory Towers - which in retrospect was one long essay in how to be a prig. I think it is that I've always been a little bit contrary and liked to search out the unusual. As a five year old I declared I did not want to be a nurse or a secretary, I wanted to be Prime Minister. I used to spend hours making dresses for my dolls, but next day would find me playing War! (this game had a capital W and a ! because it involved noise and mud bombs and getting filthy and scabby knees) or getting done for running my 200+ toy cars down my grandparents' stairs. As an adult I take immense pride in the fact that my name will not fit on most standard workplace forms. That's how I am. Awkward.

I think in Tolkien I again satisfied my need to find the unusual. I know I am not alone, as my best female friends have all been similar to me, sharing a preference for loving obnoxious music and hating sappy pop, watching sci-fi and war films and being knowledgeable about cars, amongst other 'traditionally male' pursuits. I would be willing to place a substantial bet that such girls lurk in this class. But peer pressure is a horrible thing for us women, and we often just go along with the herd in order not to be universally despised; the only other option is to go along with the men and be friends with them instead, but then the other women seem to hate us even more.

When reading for pleasure to be perfectly frank I don't really notice the absence of any particular gender. I do notice a sexist comment or behaviour in a character, but I don't need there to be either men or women, just a story I enjoy.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But peer pressure is a horrible thing for us women, and we often just go along with the herd in order not to be universally despised; the only other option is to go along with the men and be friends with them instead, but then the other women seem to hate us even more.

*big nod*

If you follow the crowd, you can't think for yourself, and if you think for yourself, then you aren't thinking the same things as the crowd and are immediately cast out from it. I mentioned on Lush's confessional thread that my most daring moment was raising my hand in a bio-terrorism lecture to disagree with the lecturer. While in my case, I was contradicting an expert (), it can be just as terrifying to share your opinion with peers that may or may not take seriously a single thing you say. Perhaps you've got a few closet fans, Fordie.