Tolkien and Asimov - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 10-10-2005, 07:30 PM

Granted this is a very tenuous link, but I am intrigued by it nonetheless. In Letter # 294 Tolkien writes, "I enjoy the S.F. of Asimov." I finally read Foundation and am eager to read more of the series. But I find it interesting that Tolkien was reading Asimov by 1967. What effect, if any, might Asimov's vision and themes have had on Tolkien's rethinking Arda in terms of Morgoth's Ring? Is there any connection possible? ...plausible? I realize that this may be tenuous, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what others think.

Bêthberry · 10-10-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Granted this is a very tenuous link, but I am intrigued by it nonetheless. In Letter # 294 Tolkien writes, "I enjoy the S.F. of Asimov."

Oh, I found this a fascinating note too, when I read the letters. A somewhat related tangent is Asimov's knowledge of Tolkien. I haven't read Asimov's autobigraphy, It's Been a Good Life, (but I do know the Foundation trilogy and much love the I, Robot stories) but I seem to recall reading somewhere that he had read Tolkien something like five times.

What might make for a common point of reference is the theme of change. (Brevity, thy name is Bethberry these days.)

HerenIstarion · 10-10-2005, 11:56 PM

There are many common points there (per instance, does Gaia equal Lorien - preservation and harmony of nature etc etc?). But they seem to differ in one of their main points, though, namely, freedom of Men (or individual man, to be more precise) (I deliberatly do not mention Eru/lack of corresponding being with Asimov, since it's obvious):

In Tolkien, humans progress from 'watched/guided/protected' mode to independent Dominion of Men, and are 'free to shape their life...' etc. In Asimov, the process is reversed - humans start off as individual free agents, the transitions being Foundation - seemingly independent society, but its actions are Mene Takel Fares, and Gaia - common Intellect, something like mental anthill, with the higher mode of existence seen as future union of the whole Galaxy (and probably whole universe further on) into one 'Consciousness', with the idea that process is part of necessary progress, part of the road to survival, and should be undergone despite of incontestable unwill of many individual humans to be so united. Besides, Robot/Valar parallel may be drawn, but robots are: A. Man's own creation B. Become Valar-like entity (i.e. Power behind the events in the Galaxy/protector/conductor of Fate) only by the end of the series. Idea is plausible - to the great extent, Valar are servants themselves, but not in the mode Asimov developed his robots.

I very much like idea of Fate being rendered and calculated mathematically, though

. Imagine Mandos doing equations, typing feverishly on his 'Fortunium IV ('Valintel Inside)' PC's keyboard? And all those elves thinking he is being prophesying...

Eorl of Rohan · 10-11-2005, 12:33 AM

My heart almost stopped at this topic. Tolkien, good Eru grief, liked Asimov? Asimov. And Tolkien. Since I've grown out of childhood tales, my whole literary life has revolved around those two authors. They are so different, yet same. Asimov, in his refreshing brevity and quick-paced narrative, Tolkien with his fantastic descriptions and gentle flow - Asimov, his imagination reaching into the future, Tolkien, placing emphasis on bloodlines and histories and building a world of the past, the flowing years from the sea - yet, pick them apart bit by bit, and there is one fascinating similarity about their works, which is _____...

Well, the answer to the blank must be different to all. I leave it open.

PS. Why do people neglect his ROBOT NOVEL series? I think they're the best of the lot, although this is just my opinion. I recommend the following (with + to the specially good, - to the not so good): Foundation, Foundation and Empire(+), Foundation's Edge(-), Foundation's End, Prelude to Foundation(+), Forward the Foundation(-), Caves of Steel(+), Robots of Dawn(+), The Naked Sun, Second Foundation, I Robot, Nemesis, and the various other non-fictions of his are just as good.

drigel · 10-11-2005, 07:17 AM

Wow I thought I was all alone with these two favorite authors of mine...

Thinking about commonalities of the authors, for me it's a "purest" angle. While there have been great ones over all decades, my take on SF is that the best stuff was written in the mid 20th century. "Classic" SF as it were... whats appealing to me is that the vision of the future, while relfecting some of the nuclear drama of the time, is more forthright. Less encumbered by techno babble and futurist speak. There is a real feeling of vision of the future IMO. Real people in a real obtainable future. Likewise, I (purest again) feel that the best fantasy fiction was - well - Tolkien and RE Howard. All written in mid 20th century again. History was (to me) more alive during this pre-technological age to us as a culture. Asimov was as grounded as a Humanist, as Tolkien was grounded as a Catholic, and both used that foundation in their writings.

For the body of works - well the pattern was the same in both authors. Tolkien had his legendarium, where the attempt to fit the pieces together was made to incorporate the body of work as a whole. Asimov had his Foundation novels, which was a microcosm in itself, but the Empire novels, Robot novels, most of his short stories, all fit, or had a natural place in his "legendarium". In his novel "The End of Eternity", he even explains why, in his future, mankind is the only intelligent space faring species around.

littlemanpoet · 10-11-2005, 08:58 AM

Thanks for the intriguing responses.

I should mention that I ran across an article in Mythlore magazine (dedicated to the creative work of Tolkien, Lewis, Charles Williams, and other Inklings) in which Tolkien and Lewis's interest in the current sci fi of their own time (30s/40s) got them to thinking about writing time travel and space travel stories of their own. So for Tolkien it was a longstanding love affair, as it were. It's also interesting that in that Letter I mentioned above, Tolkien said that he pretty much avoided fantasy of the 60s as pretty bad stuff, but liked sci fi. What does that tell you?

alatar · 10-11-2005, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I very much like idea of Fate being rendered and calculated mathematically, though

. Imagine Mandos doing eqautions, typing feverishlty on his 'Fortunium IV ('Valintel Inside)' PC's keyboard? And all those elves thinking he is being prophesying...

Agreed. Always liked the idea of determining group (not individual) behavior via mathematics. In theory it would work; you would just need to be able to gather, analyze and interpret the data in an efficient and timely fashion. On the other hand, Mandos may have just taken great notes during the Music...

Read something recently regarding a god that could know what every atom (or even quantum) in the universe was doing and so would do in the future. This would mean that the god or 'Mandos' computer' would have to be larger than the universe that it was modeling. Anyway, future prediction/prophecy is something that is easier to accept than to understand.

Read Asimov as a teen and again as an adult. Though I think that he is 'one of the greats,' I now see Asimov's stories, especially the Foundation series, as simplistic. Don't see Tolkien's works like that, and am not sure if it's due to the writing, content, or that one is science fiction in the future and the other is fantasy in the past. Asimov's stories always are pasteurized, and everything just seems to work out just so in the end. Does anyone know of an example of a Boromir-like character death in the Foundation series?

Just some rambling thoughts.

Bêthberry · 10-11-2005, 10:00 AM

"Liar", short story in I, Robot. No Boromir, but ...

10-10-2005, 07:30 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Tolkien and Asimov Granted this is a very tenuous link, but I am intrigued by it nonetheless. In Letter # 294 Tolkien writes, "I enjoy the S.F. of Asimov." I finally read Foundation and am eager to read more of the series. But I find it interesting that Tolkien was reading Asimov by 1967. What effect, if any, might Asimov's vision and themes have had on Tolkien's rethinking Arda in terms of Morgoth's Ring? Is there any connection possible? ...plausible? I realize that this may be tenuous, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what others think.

10-10-2005, 11:56 PM	#3
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	There are many common points there (per instance, does Gaia equal Lorien - preservation and harmony of nature etc etc?). But they seem to differ in one of their main points, though, namely, freedom of Men (or individual man, to be more precise) (I deliberatly do not mention Eru/lack of corresponding being with Asimov, since it's obvious): In Tolkien, humans progress from 'watched/guided/protected' mode to independent Dominion of Men, and are 'free to shape their life...' etc. In Asimov, the process is reversed - humans start off as individual free agents, the transitions being Foundation - seemingly independent society, but its actions are Mene Takel Fares, and Gaia - common Intellect, something like mental anthill, with the higher mode of existence seen as future union of the whole Galaxy (and probably whole universe further on) into one 'Consciousness', with the idea that process is part of necessary progress, part of the road to survival, and should be undergone despite of incontestable unwill of many individual humans to be so united. Besides, Robot/Valar parallel may be drawn, but robots are: A. Man's own creation B. Become Valar-like entity (i.e. Power behind the events in the Galaxy/protector/conductor of Fate) only by the end of the series. Idea is plausible - to the great extent, Valar are servants themselves, but not in the mode Asimov developed his robots. I very much like idea of Fate being rendered and calculated mathematically, though . Imagine Mandos doing equations, typing feverishly on his 'Fortunium IV ('Valintel Inside)' PC's keyboard? And all those elves thinking he is being prophesying... __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 10-11-2005 at 11:16 AM. Reason: looots of typos

10-11-2005, 12:33 AM	#4
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	My heart almost stopped at this topic. Tolkien, good Eru grief, liked Asimov? Asimov. And Tolkien. Since I've grown out of childhood tales, my whole literary life has revolved around those two authors. They are so different, yet same. Asimov, in his refreshing brevity and quick-paced narrative, Tolkien with his fantastic descriptions and gentle flow - Asimov, his imagination reaching into the future, Tolkien, placing emphasis on bloodlines and histories and building a world of the past, the flowing years from the sea - yet, pick them apart bit by bit, and there is one fascinating similarity about their works, which is _____... Well, the answer to the blank must be different to all. I leave it open. PS. Why do people neglect his ROBOT NOVEL series? I think they're the best of the lot, although this is just my opinion. I recommend the following (with + to the specially good, - to the not so good): Foundation, Foundation and Empire(+), Foundation's Edge(-), Foundation's End, Prelude to Foundation(+), Forward the Foundation(-), Caves of Steel(+), Robots of Dawn(+), The Naked Sun, Second Foundation, I Robot, Nemesis, and the various other non-fictions of his are just as good. __________________ There is no signature here. Last edited by Eorl of Rohan; 10-11-2005 at 12:37 AM.

10-11-2005, 10:00 AM	#8
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,997	"Liar", short story in I, Robot. No Boromir, but ... __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

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10-11-2005, 07:17 AM	#5
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Wow I thought I was all alone with these two favorite authors of mine... Thinking about commonalities of the authors, for me it's a "purest" angle. While there have been great ones over all decades, my take on SF is that the best stuff was written in the mid 20th century. "Classic" SF as it were... whats appealing to me is that the vision of the future, while relfecting some of the nuclear drama of the time, is more forthright. Less encumbered by techno babble and futurist speak. There is a real feeling of vision of the future IMO. Real people in a real obtainable future. Likewise, I (purest again) feel that the best fantasy fiction was - well - Tolkien and RE Howard. All written in mid 20th century again. History was (to me) more alive during this pre-technological age to us as a culture. Asimov was as grounded as a Humanist, as Tolkien was grounded as a Catholic, and both used that foundation in their writings. For the body of works - well the pattern was the same in both authors. Tolkien had his legendarium, where the attempt to fit the pieces together was made to incorporate the body of work as a whole. Asimov had his Foundation novels, which was a microcosm in itself, but the Empire novels, Robot novels, most of his short stories, all fit, or had a natural place in his "legendarium". In his novel "The End of Eternity", he even explains why, in his future, mankind is the only intelligent space faring species around.

10-11-2005, 08:58 AM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Thanks for the intriguing responses. I should mention that I ran across an article in Mythlore magazine (dedicated to the creative work of Tolkien, Lewis, Charles Williams, and other Inklings) in which Tolkien and Lewis's interest in the current sci fi of their own time (30s/40s) got them to thinking about writing time travel and space travel stories of their own. So for Tolkien it was a longstanding love affair, as it were. It's also interesting that in that Letter I mentioned above, Tolkien said that he pretty much avoided fantasy of the 60s as pretty bad stuff, but liked sci fi. What does that tell you?