Curses!

[Formendacil]

Well, after about eight months of service on this noble board, I have finally found a topic that I think I can start a thread on without repeating any previous one. And as the forum is rather quiet, and in need of a good, books-based discussion, I present to you the following:

In Unorthodox Heroes?, Post #13, I posed the question of which Curse had the greater power over the cursed: the Curse of Morgoth (over Hurin and his kin) or the curse of the Valar, over the Noldor as a people.

Obviously, the Curse of the Valar was a great deal more far-reaching, seeing as it covered an entire race- and those so foolish or unlucky as to get caught in it with them, most notably the Sindar under Thingol.

On the other hand, the Doom of the Valar does not have as disasterous individual actions as that of Morgoth's Curse. In the case of the latter, Morgoth is able to dominate the lives of Turin and his kin to such an extent that NOTHING they do is successful for more than a very short while, and it is all manipulated to evil. The Doom of the Noldor, on the other hand, seems to have less immediate effects. For instance, the Noldor are successful in their first several battles with Morgoth, and have the Watchful Peace, several hundred years in which to build remarkable, and memorable, kingdoms. And there is, of course, the tale of Beren and Luthien, the recovering of the Silmaril- an ultimately disastrous event for the union of the Eldar, but one that was totally unforeseen by the Doom of the Noldor (and although neither Luthien nor Beren was of the Noldor, by seeking the Silmaril they fell under the Curse- or Thingol did anyway).

So, I put it to you: which Doom is the more powerful, and why?

[mormegil]

Put in those terms I do not believe that they would be comparable. They are too different in nature. I spoke of this briefly on the unorthodox hero thread but will do so here too in hopes of clarifying my ideas.

The curse of the Valar came upon the Noldor, specifically Feanor and all those who followed him, because of their actions. It seems more or less a cause and effect senario. Because of the oath sworn and their actions taken they brought upon themselves that doom or curse. It seems that they were able to have good actions that didn't turn to evil, as you stated and yet when people tied themselves in they brought upon themselves the same doom. However, "bringing yourself in" is not merely having some role in the Silmarils fate, I give Beren as an example. He was not under the curse as Thingol became. I think it was because of his intent and desire.

The curse of Morgoth upon Hurin and his kin is entirely different in that it is localized to one small group and is given evilly, not justly as was the curse of the Valar. Turin received this curse by no action of his own. Therefore it was not justly given and any ill result of his actions, if well intended, could not be held against him.

If we are talking sheer scope the 'curse' of the valar would be more powerful in that it covered hundreds of years and many people. Also, the 'curse' came from the Valar and essentially from Eru but was given in justice due to their actions so Eru is more powerful than Morgoth.

[Formendacil]

Perhaps the Noldor brought it upon themselves... but does that make the POWER of the Doom any less powerful? Just because Turin did nothing to deserve it, the curse of Morgoth led him to have all his acts lead ultimately to ruin- the same as the Doom of the Noldor did to the acts of that people.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps the Noldor brought it upon themselves... but does that make the POWER of the Doom any less powerful? Just because Turin did nothing to deserve it, the curse of Morgoth led him to have all his acts lead ultimately to ruin- the same as the Doom of the Noldor did to the acts of that people.

I would say that depends upon how you look at it. The simple fact that Morgoth could curse Hurin and his family, through no fault of theirs, shows the extreme power of this curse. And with the curse of the Noldor, since it was brought upon them by their actions, doesn't seem as powerful but it was handed down essentially by Eru, therefore powerful in that regard.

So in other words the reason I would say that the curse of Hurin is more powerful is that it came because independent of anything he did to deserve such a curse. I would say the curse of the Valar is more powerful because of the sheer scope of who it covered and applied to. The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

"To curses other curses no doubt appear different. Or to cursemakers."

I do not know that they are so different. They are essentially the same in what they doom, that those cursed will find all their actions turned to naught.

It is not perhaps more a comparison between a Golden Delicious and a crabapple?

[The Perky Ent]

Grey Area! Grey Area! Well...how do you define power? Clearly, curses hold much power in Arda. From the curse of the Noldor, to the curse of Morgoth, even to the curse Isildur places upon the dead men under the mountain. One man (granted he's a decentant of Elros and of royal numenorian descent) placing a curse on a group of people, granting them an immortality until they fufil their oath. That seems like a powerful one as well! Morgoth's curse upon Hurin clearly is the more tragic. I don't think any of us say "Wow! I wish I could have been Turin! His life was fun!" The fact that the curse of Melkor rules the entire lives of the children of Hurin is rather interesting. I'm still getting more and more intrigued by Isildur's curse. One man casting a curse more powerful (well, that's what this thread is about, isn't it?) than that of the valar. The valar's curse works on a more massive scale, and if you measure power in that sense, the answer would be the valar's curse. Making many suffer for that which they may not have deserved (not counting the dead). I'm not really sure what to say, because A) I'm not that familiar with the curse of the valar, and cannot find my copy of the sil, and B) Because I'm not sure how to measure power. Because of my lack of knowlege, I'll side with the Valar's curse on the Noldor. It's on a more widespread scale, and the wrath is spread more rashly



3000th post! Wowzers!

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Obviously, the Curse of the Valar was a great deal more far-reaching, seeing as it covered an entire race- and those so foolish or unlucky as to get caught in it with them, most notably the Sindar under Thingol.

On the other hand, the Doom of the Valar does not have as disasterous individual actions as that of Morgoth's Curse. In the case of the latter, Morgoth is able to dominate the lives of Turin and his kin to such an extent that NOTHING they do is successful for more than a very short while, and it is all manipulated to evil. The Doom of the Noldor, on the other hand, seems to have less immediate effects. For instance, the Noldor are successful in their first several battles with Morgoth, and have the Watchful Peace, several hundred years in which to build remarkable, and memorable, kingdoms.

This makes me wonder: was the delayed effect of the Doom of Mandos compared to the immediate destructiveness of the Curse of Morgoth a sign of weakness, or overstretching over an entire race lessening its immediacy? Or-rather more interestingly-was it intended as part of the punishment of the Noldor, to allow them long years of success and glory, which would haunt them for ever after the hammer-blow came; and yet hearten them enough not to lose hope entirely?

In other words, did the Valar intend that the glory of the elder days, and the founding of the great Elven cities and realms, should occur; in order to teach the Noldor humility, and yet give them in their memories a gift of proud nostalgia which would let them continue to resist Morgoth and Sauron? An odd gift-punishment; "what might have been" etched in their minds, to encourage them and taunt them and ultimately lead them home over the Sea.

On the other hand, Morgoth's Curse was built to destroy, and did so. So each, it seems to me, served their purpose...

[Celuien]

I'd have to say that Morgoth's curse is the weakest of all.

What's she talking about? Morgoth destroyed all of Hurin's children quite successfully.

It did. Nienor and Turin both came to tragic ends, and through Morgoth. But, the ultimate cause for the worst of the curse's effects came through direct intervention from Morgoth via Glaurung. I don't see the curse working alone here, but rather the curse + Morgoth plotting to personally bring about the most crucial steps in the process that led to their downfall.

For example, let's say that Jack and Jill are feuding neighbors. Jill puts a curse on Jack for some reason (I don't want to give Jill any special powers for the purpose of this discussion). Suddenly, things start to go badly for Jack. His car doesn't start, his formerly lush green lawn dies and his dog runs away. He finally falls behind on his mortgage, loses his job and house and winds up homeless. Jill's curse seems effective, yes? But suppose the reason all of these horrible things happened to poor Jack was that Jill snuck over to his house at night, poisoned the lawn, loosened the belts in his car and opened the doggie gate. And what's more, let's say she has very good friends at both Jack’s place of employment, where the friend undermined Jack’s job performance, and at his bank where the receipt of Jack's house payments was delayed and his late notices transferred to the trash bin. Is this still a curse working, or is it Jill's malevolent attention?

In the same way, I don't see Morgoth's curse working as well as it did without Glaurung appearing to be the direct machinery involved in Turin abandoning Finduilas and in Nienor's memory loss. If Morgoth sent him to accomplish these tasks, I don't want to assign them to the independent workings of a curse. And it does appear that Morgoth was directing Glaurung's actions:

...Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master.

True, Turin would still have had bad luck and killed off his allies through mischance, which I see as the curse itself at work, but that would have led only to Turin's being an unhappy man with both heroism and tragic, accidental misdeeds in his background - not to his and Nienor's destruction.

The Valar's curse on the Noldor, on the other hand, worked against them without Mandos and company appearing in Middle-earth to direct the course of events. If anything, various Valar (cough...Ulmo...cough) tried to aid the Noldor.

[Rimbaud]

I've read this, just over a month late. Something clicked on the matter of curses and I remembered this , where in addition to some further brief discussion of other curses mentioned, Undé provided a brace of further links.

[Voralphion]

Morgoth's curse on the children of Hurin was effective without the action of Glaurang. I believe the curse was at least partly at work with Turin fleeing from Doriath after the accidental slaying of Saeros, the killing of his friend Beleg Strongbow when he was freeing Turin from the orcs that had captured him. Had none of these things happened, Turin would probably have never gone to Nargothrond, where his actions led to it being discovered by Morgoth and Glaurang and its ultimate destruction, and the events that followed later involving Nienor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Voralphion

Morgoth's curse on the children of Hurin was effective without the action of Glaurang. I believe the curse was at least partly at work with Turin fleeing from Doriath after the accidental slaying of Saeros, the killing of his friend Beleg Strongbow when he was freeing Turin from the orcs that had captured him. Had none of these things happened, Turin would probably have never gone to Nargothrond, where his actions led to it being discovered by Morgoth and Glaurang and its ultimate destruction, and the events that followed later involving Nienor.

Actually, that's an interesting thought to ponder: what WOULD have happened without Glaurung- assuming, of course, that Finduilas DIDN'T break Morgoth's curse on him (and although it is suggested that she would have, it is not said so definitively). In that case, Turin's curse would certainly have remained effective, if not so dramatically so as it was in the end. One wonders where it would have taken him... Nargothrond would have fallen in the end, once Morgoth learned of it. What then?

Would Turin have returned to Doriath, and wreaked havoc there, preceeding his father? Would he have gone with the refugees to join Cirdan and Gil-galad, and wrecked THAT settlement (which would really have screwed things up- more than he ended up doing). Would he have gone to Dor-Lomin anyway, and messed up Tuor's life, thus precipitating Gondolin's fall?

Hmm... now that I think about it, the chances for Turin to wreck things was pretty wide open...