Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[The Saucepan Man]

This is an issue which has featured obliquely in many discussions on this forum, most particularly those relating to religion, “canonicity” (whatever that is ) and Tolkien’s literary, historical and mythological influences. It has, however, never formed a topic in its own right as far as I am aware and it is one which I have been musing upon for some time.

It seems to me that LoTR has a particular cultural appeal, which is based very much on the religious, historical and mythological traditions that Tolkien drew upon in writing the book. I have no hard and fast data concerning the book’s world-wide appeal but, based upon the membership of the Downs (which at least is indicative of those for whom the book has particular appeal), its greatest appeal would appear to lie among those of European (Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Scandinavian) and/or the Judaeo-Christian heritage.

Of course, this should come as no surprise. The book was written by an Englishman and first published in the UK. As a philologist, he was greatly influenced by some of the older languages of Europe (Anglo-Saxon, Welsh and Finnish in particular). The book itself is based in a “Western European” setting and Tolkien drew heavily on European traditions and mythology. And, by his own admission, he was also influenced heavily by his own Catholic faith “consciously so in the revision”. So it is hardly surprising that his book should appeal most to readers who share the faith (in broad terms) and/or the cultural traditions on which it is primarily based.

Interestingly, as I have noted above, LotR’s appeal within Europe seems to be particularly focussed within those countries which might broadly be described as having Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and Scandinavian (and possibly Celtic) heritages. Clearly, many Downers hail from the UK, and there are quite a few from Germany, the Netherlands and (in particular) the Scandinavian countries. On the other hand, I have seen few, if any, members from France, Italy or Spain (although I know that there are a few very popular Spanish LotR fansites). Yet these are the countries of Europe in which Tolkien’s own faith, Catholicism, is strongest. I wonder why this is? Is it simply because, while the book may be popular in these countries, readers prefer forums based upon their own language (as seems to be the case in Spain)?

In any event, my question is: Does LotR have any cultural appeal beyond the traditions that I have identified above? Of course, the Downs membership (and thus the appeal of LotR) extends beyond Europe (the majority of course hailing from North America, including the site's founder), but it seems to me that this is primarily the result of such traditions having been exported through migration, imperialism and the spread of Christianity, with the result that they are no longer solely Europe-based. As far as I am aware, there are no Downers in China or in any strongly Islamic countries. Is this because the book has little appeal in these cultural traditions, or is this largely a function of language barriers? Does the book have any appeal to Hindus, Buddhists (and I know that there are a few Downers who at least have an interest in Buddhism) or among the indigenous people of the Americas and Australasia? Or does its really only appeal to those of the European and/or Judaeo-Christian tradition?

It seems to me that this question is important because I do believe that, in writing LotR, Tolkien was attempting to set out what he saw as “universal truths” on matters such as morality and the human condition. If, however, the book only has a relatively limited cultural appeal, might it not be argued that he failed in this? If the book appeals only to those who can identify with the traditions and imagery upon which Tolkien drew, can the “truths” which he sought to get across really said to be universal? Or is it that the “European trappings” of LotR (ie the geography, imagery and cultures of Middle-earth) put off those who cannot identify with them, thereby obscuring such underlying messages or cross-cultural archetypal imagery as might be present?

I would be interested to hear other perspectives on this issue. Are you aware of LotR having cross-cultural appeal? Are there any Downers who do not hail from the European/Judaeo-Christian traditions that I mention above? If so, do you find that there are elements that the book has in common with your own traditions (whether cultural or faith-based)? Have I simply under-estimated the broad appeal of the book based upon a relatively narrow cross-section of the Tolkien-reading world (ie Barrow-Downs membership)? Also, does ethnic origin come into it at all? I would say that the majority of Downers are Caucasian, but there are a good few members of Oriental and Asian ethnic descent. But what about those of African and Afro-Caribbean descent? Does LotR have particular appeal only among certain ethnic groups? Please share your thoughts.

Disclaimer 1: I realise that I have somewhat mixed up culture, ethnicity and religion in this post. While I accept that these concepts are not identical, it seems to me that they are intrinsically linked.

Disclaimer 2: I have tried to choose my words very carefully in this post in order to avoid giving any offence to any particular religion, cultural tradition or ethnic group. If I have inadvertently done so, I apologise.

Disclaimer 3: It is not my intention to start another “canonicity” type discussion. While any discussion of LotR will involve consideration of whether there are “universally accepted truths” in the book (and I have raised this point myself above), that is not intended to be the central focus of this thread. Rather, I am interested in whether LotR does have cross-cultural appeal, if so why, and if not why not.

[Bêthberry]

I have certainly noticed this in the chat room, Sauce. There are a good many Dutch Downers and Scandinavians along with those from English-speaking countries. I cannot recall any French chatterers, although Tolkien's dislike of the French and his attitude towards Celtic--he preferred Welsh and to my mind rejected Celtic mythology in favour of Anglo-Saxon lore--could have some influence there. Also, given that English is the required language--and real English, not chat-speak--it is not surprising there are so few other linguistic heritages represented in chat.

One point to be considered about the books is the quality of the translation into other languages. We have Tolkien's thoughts on various translations, but if the books aren't 'page turners' in a person's native language, they won't attract many readers. And if the books don't have 'cultural correlates' in other languages, they will be difficult to translate effectively. I wonder if book sales info is available for various countries, both for English and translated forms.

I'll let others weigh in before I add any more thoughts.

[the guy who be short]

Nice thread, SpM.

I think we should probably consider nationality as well as ethnicity if we're going to be discussing the appeal Tolkien has. I'm of Indian descent, but British myself, so that I have access to both West European and Indic traditions, mythologies, faiths (following none myself) and ideas.

I believe you're correct in identifying the "greatest appeal" as lying within Europe (and North America) - as far as I can recall, there is one Downer dwelling in India and one in an Islamic state (though it's hard to tell where people live, of course). Geographically, I guess Tolkien nuts are denser in the West. But then, consider literacy rates elsewhere too. People in large parts of the foreign world simply don't have the chance to learn to read, yet alone read Tolkien.

Originally Posted by SpM

Is it simply because, while the book may be popular in these [Catholic] countries, readers prefer forums based upon their own language?

I'd say this is the case. I know of a few French Tolkien fansites, despite Tolkien's opinions on their tongue. The English fansite is naturally more likely to attract native English-speakers.

Originally Posted by SpM

As far as I am aware, there are no Downers in China or in any strongly Islamic countries. Is this because the book has little appeal in these cultural traditions, or is this largely a function of language barriers?

As I said, I recall one Downer from an Islamic nation. I would presume the fact can be based on language barriers rather than culture.

Originally Posted by Spm

Does the book have any appeal to Hindus, Buddhists (and I know that there are a few Downers who at least have an interest in Buddhism) or among the indigenous people of the Americas and Australasia? Or does its really only appeal to those of the European and/or Judaeo-Christian tradition?

I was born into a Hindu family, but living in Britain I also have a firm knowledge of Christianity. I can only presume my love of Tolkien would still exist, were that not the case. I am an atheist, and I know LotR appeals to a lot of atheists and agnostics as well as to Christians and Jews.
As to the Question of Hindus and Buddhists... well, who can say? I presume that Hindus and Buddhists living in the East without Western influences would simply not be able to pick up a copy of LotR (do translations into Hindi etc. actually exist?).

Originally Posted by SpM

If so, do you find that there are elements that the book has in common with your own traditions (whether cultural or faith-based)?

I guess I see a parallel with Elven reincarnation and Hindu beliefs, but I can't think of much else. Oh, and Tengwar looks surprisingly like Hindi alphabets, though I don't think that's extremely relevant - all it does is take the "foreignness" away from Tengwar.

Originally Posted by SpM

Also, does ethnic origin come into it at all?...Does LotR have particular appeal only among certain ethnic groups?

Don't really see why it should... I'd say ethnicity and faith have little importance, whereas geography and perhaps culture do. As you said, these all overlap so much that there would appear to be ethnic and religious differences. But considering that ethnicity doesn't really affect anything about a person, and that people of any religion can (and do) enjoy any book, I don't see any importance there.

Main points:

Geography - People from the Sahara are less likely to have access to Tolkien. This doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to them. Illiteracy plays a large part - perhaps a huge proportion of Burkina Faso's population would be interested in Tolkien, if they had the opportunity to read.

Culture - Middle-Earth does have more in common with Western culture - the Valar, for example, are more likely to be understood by and appeal to somebody with knowledge of Western history and culture than a Buddhist in Tibet.

I can't help but feel that I've been horribly unclear in this post and failed to get any messages that I wished to across, but I'm not feeling that great, so I excuse myself even if you don't.

[Mithalwen]

I know Japanese Tolkien addicts from other sites and I know there are a number of Indian members here. Also Singaporeans .......

I can tell you there are some very active French LOTR (Seigneur des Anneaux) sites out there (haven't plucked up the courage to post ) and they are rather fond of Christopher Tolkien since he is " Francophile et francophone" and Adam Tolkien is gradually translating HoME in to French.

Other cultures may of course have a slightly different perspective on the books since they approach it fresh. One of my English teachers said it was quite an experience teaching Wuthering Heights in Africa. They saw great symbolism in the grass being green for example.....

[Formendacil]

Culture...

That is an interesting term.

My own opinion- quite possibly a faulty one- is that while Tolkien's work heavily and deliberately draws off of his Catholic faith, seems to appeal to people of all faiths, although Christians like to claim it as their own.

However, as far as language-culture goes, I would say that you are correct in that it is limited to the speakers of the Germanic and Norse languages for its main appeal. Which would seem to be a natural extension of how it was written. it was, after all, originally a legendarium for the English- and it draws heavily off of the Norse and Germanic traditions.

I also have to wonder what role the translation plays in this... After all, the idiom and such would naturally translate more readily to another Germanic language than it would to a, for example, Latin tongue.

You mentioned that Tolkien seems to have a greater following in Spanish than in French. I wonder if this might have to do with the translators? Maybe they did a better job with Spanish...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I also have to wonder what role the translation plays in this... After all, the idiom and such would naturally translate more readily to another Germanic language than it would to a, for example, Latin tongue.

You mentioned that Tolkien seems to have a greater following in Spanish than in French. I wonder if this might have to do with the translators? Maybe they did a better job with Spanish...

This is an interesting point, as in the latest Mallorn (Journal of the Tolkien Society) there's an article 'Traitors & Translators: three German translations of LotR'. Apparently the latest one, by Wolfgang Krege, has taken an approach of translating the work into a contemporary German idiom, so that, for example, Sam refers to Frodo as 'Boss', rather than 'Master', &, to give some examples, Galdriel's 'Like as not,' said the Lady with a gentle laugh.' becomes something like 'Sure!' said the Lady, giggling softly.', Faramir's 'It may even help the Master you love.' becomes equivalent to 'It may even be to the advantage of the Master you're so concerned for.' & Sam's 'O wake up Frodo, me dear, me dear.' is 'translated' as 'O wake up Frodo, damn it all, wake up!'

On the wider point, Tolkien was attempting to supply a mythology for England, to replace the one we had lost. I've said this before, but I've always been slightly surprised that non-English readers even get the story, as its always seemed so very English to me. A pleasant surprise, of course, but odd, to me, nonetheless....

[Lalwendë]

For myself, I was always surprised at the strong response Tolkien's work received from committed Christians as it has aways seemed to me to resonate more with pre-Christain culture and belief. It's been said before, but there is a distinct lack of churches, priests and rituals within Middle-earth. Those rituals which we do see are simple, such as Faramir's company looking to the West as a form of 'grace', and this could also signify something to do with honouring ancestors from Numenor.

Tolkien's work also reveres the landscape; those who work with it are considered to be 'good' while those who work against it are not. Creatuires such as the Ents are often compared with older cultures' ideas such as The Green Man and tree spirits, and though carvings of The Green Man are often seen in churches, this is most defintely a pre-Christian symbol. Tolkien seems to direct us towards reverence for all living creatures, including the living landscape rather than rverence of humans.

Such beliefs are still strong in the world today. Not only the 'west' has followers of Pagan faiths, but these are present in the indigenous cultures of Australasia, Africa and the Americas. In Japan, Shinto reveres the ancestor.

I'd say that Tolkien's work does appeal to people other than European or European descent Christians, for want of a better term. The other thing is that with a forum like this, none of us can tell what colour the other person is, so how do we know if we are predominantly of White descent or not?

The question of whether good translations are available is particularly relevant, as English is a difficult language to work with, and Tolkien makes great use of both archaic and idiomatic English, so a good translation must be difficult to find (and possibly also expensive?). Bearing this in mind, there is another issue, and that is whether in certain countries English is the preferred foreign language to be taught at school.

I do knwo that there are indeed a lot of French LotR fans, but the French are as protective about their native language as the English are and so I'm not at all surprised that we don't have many French members, as they will probably prefer a french language site. Whether this holds true for French Canadians (if that's the right term) I don't know. If I had a different native language than English and there were a lot of good quality sites where my native tongue was used, then I should prefer to use those no doubt, as it would simply be easier.

As to cultural appeal, I'm lost on what to say for the moment, but if the films had a worldwide appeal then wouldn;t the books have this too?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

This is an interesting point, as in the latest Mallorn (Journal of the Tolkien Society) there's an article 'Traitors & Translators: three German translations of LotR'. Apparently the latest one, by Wolfgang Krege, has taken an approach of translating the work into a contemporary German idiom...

I don't know of three translations in German, but I have looked briefly into both the old and new. The latter is rejected by many German fans because it doesn't do the spirit of the work justice, yet the former is a bit wooden. Quite frankly, since I read the original first, I can't get myself to settle for second or third best, so I don't read the translations.

I have often experienced a similar effect with other books, movies, TV shows, etc. - if I read or saw them in German first, they didn't always appeal to me. Only when I had the opportunity to read/see the original did the fascination get to me. Can the magic be translated? Just the words are not enough.

[Maédhros]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Interestingly, as I have noted above, LotR’s appeal within Europe seems to be particularly focussed within those countries which might broadly be described as having Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and Scandinavian (and possibly Celtic) heritages. Clearly, many Downers hail from the UK, and there are quite a few from Germany, the Netherlands and (in particular) the Scandinavian countries. On the other hand, I have seen few, if any, members from France, Italy or Spain (although I know that there are a few very popular Spanish LotR fansites). Yet these are the countries of Europe in which Tolkien’s own faith, Catholicism, is strongest. I wonder why this is? Is it simply because, while the book may be popular in these countries, readers prefer forums based upon their own language (as seems to be the case in Spain)?

I will try and give my opinions coming from a different area of the world, in my case it would be Latin America where there is a strong Catholic presence. I think that LotR is popular in some form but definitely not the way that it is in a country like Spain. I only know 2 persons besides me that have read the whole thing. I personally believe that you should try and read the authors work in their own language, because in a translation you would loose something of the work. Even thought my native language isn't english, I just can't read LotR in spanish, I just hate the translation of the names. Yuck. The same thing with spanish LotR sites, I have posted and participated in them but not to the extent that I have done in this and other english sites.
Having said that, the spanish Translation of The Cottage of Lost Play is amazing!
De La Cabaña de los Juegos Perdidos

“Ahora bien, a un costado de la cabaña había un matorral de lilas blancas, y en el otro extremo un poderoso tejo con cuyos vástagos los niños construían arcos o por cuyas ramas trepaban al techo. Pero todo pájaro que alguna vez cantó, acudía a las lilas y cantaba dulcemente. Ahora bien, las paredes de la cabaña se inclinaban por la edad, y los múltiples ventanucos eran de un enrejado retorcido en las formas más extrañas. Nadie, se decía, vivía en la cabaña, que estaba sin embargo guardada en secreto y con celo por los Elfos, para que ningún daño le ocurriera, y los niños que jugaban allí libremente no sabían que hubiera alguna guardia. Esta era la Cabaña de los Niños o del Juego del Sueño, y no del Juego Perdido, como se cantó erróneamente entre los Hombres... porque ningún juego se había perdido entonces, y aquí y ahora ¡ay! está la Cabaña del Juego Perdido.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I would be interested to hear other perspectives on this issue. Are you aware of LotR having cross-cultural appeal? Are there any Downers who do not hail from the European/Judaeo-Christian traditions that I mention above? If so, do you find that there are elements that the book has in common with your own traditions (whether cultural or faith-based)? Have I simply under-estimated the broad appeal of the book based upon a relatively narrow cross-section of the Tolkien-reading world (ie Barrow-Downs membership)? Also, does ethnic origin come into it at all? I would say that the majority of Downers are Caucasian, but there are a good few members of Oriental and Asian ethnic descent. But what about those of African and Afro-Caribbean descent? Does LotR have particular appeal only among certain ethnic groups? Please share your thoughts.

Have you noticed in the barrow-downs photo page, how many of the people there are not caucasians? I know that it is not a good sample size of the population of the forum but still it makes me wonder.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

But to assume that the Sea is always and ever a trope of profound spiritual meaning which everyone longs for is to prioritise the English cultural experience as the universal model. What is the sea, for example, in the desert cultures of Africa? What is the sea in the aboriginal mythologies of the Native Peoples of North America? In East Indian culture?

My point isn't so much to disprove davem's point but to suggest, modestly, that the values which The Sea plays in Tolkien are not necessarily values which are easily read by people of other cultures. Nor should we glibly assume that Tolkien's The Sea is in fact The Truth.

I have to begin by saying that it's not just England, but also the other British nations - The Sea has far more significance to someone in Aberdeen or Belfast than it does to someone in Birmingham. But yes the notion of The Sea is a deeply ingrained one in British people (as the guy on the documentary series The Coast reminds us at the end of each episode, in Britain you are never more than 72 miles from the sea ).

I would argue that the concept of The Sea is a strong one for many more cultures than just the British; some of the greatest explorers and mariners were Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Greek, Scandinavian and Italian. People from the Americas themselves have a strong fascination with The Sea, as demonstrated in Moby Dick. The Japanese (another Island nation admittedly) also share this fascination.

But I agree that as a concept it is not Universal. But it is not the only concept in Tolkien's work which attracts, it is just one among many. I would argue that the stronger draw is the idea of the journey, the adventure. This is something Universal. Tales of journeys occur in every culture, together with the trials that are met along the way, so here is something which all cultures can appreciate in Tolkien's work, and the idea of the journey is the backbone of the story.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But I agree that as a concept it [the Sea] is not Universal. But it is not the only concept in Tolkien's work which attracts, it is just one among many. I would argue that the stronger draw is the idea of the journey, the adventure. This is something Universal. Tales of journeys occur in every culture, together with the trials that are met along the way, so here is something which all cultures can appreciate in Tolkien's work, and the idea of the journey is the backbone of the story.

True indeed. Here, I think Cervantes' Don Quixote is one of the seminal works in European culture at least, although not the only, well, will I be allowed to call it, road show?

And I think this might be one reason why so many protagonists of the adventures are orphaned or alone. It focusses the point.