The True Master.

[Gurthang]

I've been thinking on this for a time now. I will keep it short though.

Sauron makes the ring, as everyone knows, and pours much of his power into its creation. Once he is separated from his Ring, he loses much of his power and can't even take on physical form. He now requires his Ring to do much of anything.

Now, let me restate that. Sauron, without his Ring, is almost nothing. On the other hand, his Ring has an immense will to conquer whoever bears it. We can see this in Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. It is also said, I'm not sure where, that if one of the Wise could have used the Ring (Gandalf, Elrond) it would in the end overpower even them and just make them an image of what Sauron was. Which makes sense, the Ring's will is Sauron's will, so under its direction a being becomes like to Sauron.

I suppose you can see where this is going. Sauron needs his Ring to do much of anything. He must have it; it is part of him; he searches for it; he sends his mightiest servants to get it back. In short, the Dark Lord is very much like Gollum. Both have been conquered by the Ring and reserve very little in their rush to retrieve it. It consumes them.

The Ring dominates, consumes, conquers, overpowers, masters. It cannot be resisted. It is uncontrollable, even by it's 'master'. So, the Ring is the True Master.

[Boromir88]

Once he is separated from his Ring, he loses much of his power and can't even take on physical form.

Just a minor thing to the topic of the thread, but he can take on a physical form, and he does even before we briefly read about him as the Necromancer in "The Hobbit."

But, to talk about the thread, I think you're on to something...

...it was beyond the will of any (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

I think this is a clue that The Ring is the true master. One might think that if anyone had enough "will" or "power" to destroy it, it's creator would, but Sauron is mastered by it himself. There would be no reason for him to destroy it (in fact it would mean the end of him), but the quote points out that he did not even have the will to destroy it. And another important thing is Sauron will be destroyed forever if the Ring is, but the Ring can survive without Sauron.

Sorry if I'm going in circles with this, but I think it works rather circular. The Ring is "bound" to a Master, and answers to a Master, but if the ring is destroyed then the Master is destroyed. So you might think of it as a Master-Master relationship. "The Master" has the power over the Ring, but without the ring's survival, it's master doesn't survive. My brain hurts...good thread idea.

[davem]

But isn't Sauron doing pretty well without the Ring? The destruction of the Ring is the only thing that can stop him. I'd say its damn lucky the Ring was found when it was, or Sauron would have taken over the whole of Middle-earth. All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. Bit like those fairy stories where the ogre's heart is hidden away & so he's unstoppable. He can't be defeated in battle because he's too powerful. The hero has to find out where his heart is & destroy that in order to defeat him.

So, Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

[daeron]

Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age? I don't remember exactly, but there seem to be two contradicting statements in LOTR to this question.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by daeron

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age?

Yes. Gollum saw his hands:

Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering

See also:

Sauron - Physical form in The War of the Ring or not?
Frodo or the Ring?

[davem]

Originally Posted by daeron

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

But they didn't do any of that. Taking the situation as it was at the end of the Third Age Sauron had overwhelming power in military terms & the only thing that could prevent his victory was the destruction of the Ring.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I agree. The Ring was the greatest peril and at the same time the only hope for the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. If it had remained lost forever, Sauron would have reconquered Middle-earth, though not as easily or as quickly as he would have had he obtained the Ring. Also, since the Ring would not have been there to aid Bilbo and the dwarves on the Quest of Erebor, Smaug the Dragon would still have been alive, making the fight even more hopeless.

[Boromir88]

Naw, this isn't a thread based on if Sauron was fooled in thinking someone could possibly get the Ring to Mount Doom and destroy it. But, whether he was fooled into thinking he was the Master of the Ring? Was Sauron the "Master of the Ring?" Or was it the Ring that was the Master of Sauron? And Sauron only believed he was the "Master of the Ring?"

On one side we have Sauron who is called the "Lord of the Rings," the "Master of the One." Also, the Ring tries to get back to him. It wants to get back to Sauron. When the Ring can get no more help out of a person it slips away. As it did with Gollum, and as Bilbo said it had a tendancy to slip off his finger.

Then on the other side we see in Letter 131...

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that was existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

As we are all aware, that you could either destroy the ring, or claim it and master it, to defeat Sauron for good. But, what I find interesting is that all this time it's not Sauron that's the master of the Ring, but it's the Ring that's the Master.

So now we know that the Ring could still survive, yet Sauron could be destroyed. (Though it would only bring about another Dark Lord Sauron himself would be destroyed).

It's interesting that Tolkien uses the word "rapport" to describe the relationship between the Ring's powers and Sauron.
rapport as in, bond, unity, or togetherness. Not that Sauron controlled the Ring's powers, but the Ring's powers were bonded to Sauron. And without the Ring's powers "bonded" to Sauron, Sauron could no long exist (in a physical form).

So, who was the true Master? The Ring or Sauron? Or were they coequal? The Ring wanting to get back into Sauron's hands. Yet Sauron could not survive without the Ring, or by someone strong enough to claim the ring, and able to harness it's powers, and thus overthrowing Sauron.

[mormegil]

Sauron was master. Simply put it was HIS power he poured into it and by claiming it somebody is, in essence, able to usurp a good portion of his power.

On a side note, maybe why it kept slipping off Bilbo's hand and Gollums is because they are hobbits and have generally smaller fingers than Sauron, though then it must be assumed that Isildur had rather dainty fingers too

[Roa_Aoife]

I could see it go either way, really. Perhaps Sauron had marginal control, but the ring wasn't completely controlled by it. Otherwise, it would never work for another master, ever. Gandalf mentions that the ing has a will of it's own, so it's conceivable that it could act without a master. Maybe Sauron was only master so long as the Ring allowed him to be.

I must ponder this further....

[The 1,000 Reader]

I've always believed the ring to be Sauron's master, not the other way around. It had too much power for Sauron to truly master it. It had the power of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring in it, and I doubt it was a small amount of either.

[Farael]

I must say that I agree with mormegil on this topic, it was Sauron who mastered the Ring and not the other way about. The Ring obviously had an influence in Sauron, as most of his power was contained within that Ring yet that power still belonged to Sauron (as long as no one else claimed mastery of the Ring). Why the ring has such an influence over Sauron is because without it, his powers would be diminished greatly and therefore he would probably be defeated and cease to exist. Also we see the Ring trying to get back to Sauron as perhaps a dog running back to his master's side. That's the impression I got, anyway.

I've always believed the ring to be Sauron's master, not the other way around. It had too much power for Sauron to truly master it. It had the power of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring in it, and I doubt it was a small amount of either.

I beg to differ, as the Ring was made by Sauron and not Morgoth and all the power it contained had been once Sauron's as well. Which leads me to another question

Exactly why would Sauron put so much of his power into one ring rather than keep it to himself? could he not control the other rings without a ring? did the ring enhace his powers further, even if he spent some of his own powers in its creation?

[Gurthang]

This sounds very, very familiar.

The True Master.

*flashes suspicious glance in Boromir's direction*

Anyway, my opinion: yes and no.

Sauron and the Ring are one, technically one cannot master the other. Yet they are seperate physically, so the possibility seems there.

Sauron more or less requires the Ring to function. If it is destroyed, he is as good as gone. As long as it survives, he does. Seems like the Ring is more pertinent, yes? Yet without Sauron's will inside the Ring, it would be a simple gold band. So Sauron is also essential to the pair. And, although Sauron wants the Ring badly, the Ring also desires to be in the hands of it's maker. Each requires and needs the opposite.

The pair are masters of each other.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sometimes topics are so interesting that they are brought up again without conscious copying. This one is definitely based on the same question as Gurthang's above-mentioned thread, so I will merge the two. Please continue to read and post (t)here!

[Boromir88]

This is from the movie. Sauron had a physical body even without the Ring, and he was perfectly capable of surviving without it. In fact, he very nearly overthrew Middle-earth without it. Thank deus for his machina.~obloquy

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

[Eonwe]

what about when gandalf says to whichever hobbit merry, or pippin, that sauron is the one true Lord of teh Ring (council of elrond, i believer, when said hobbit says something to the effect of "hail frodo, lord of the ring".)

i think looking at it in a practical manner is best. sauron makes the ring for one purpose: to dominate The Three. he has to put enough of himself in the Ring to effectively accomplish this. its his will. your will is what dominates you. of course he was being run by his ring, because it had a great portion of his will, or potency or whatever. but the idea of the ring mastering him i don't agree with. the ring is just a projection of whatever he is trying to do in the first place.

that is why the ring is always trying to get back to sauron.

however, i think that that will (in this case it swiches to potency) could be highjacked by someone else, if they were stong enough. in the end, whoever ends up weilding the ring will duke it out with sauron, and the winner would dominate the ring (ei, kill the other, so win the mastery of the ring by default). in this case, i think the ring would acknowledge its new master and become an outgrowth of whatever he was trying to do (which would enevitably become evil, by the evil nature of the will in the ring).

one more thing. that bit about sauron not wanting to destroy the ring is kind of self-evident. that would in effect be committing suicide. sauron isn't really going to repent (the only senario i can think of when he would have reason to destroy the ring). he already tried that and failed, even without the tempting of the ring. so i think he kind of like being evil and dominating the world.

hopefully that wasn't to confusing...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

My post was completely unnecessary here. Somehow when I looked at the thread yesterday, I only saw about half of what is here now. Apologies for the redundancy.

[Elu Ancalime]

Here's a quikie: Sauron poured his will and power into it, so he really created the mastery in the ring. He couldve taken over middle-earth without it, middle earth was lucky enough to have the ring in possesion of a bearer and knowledge of the wise. If the fellowship was sent out one month later, frodo mmight have been still in the Morgai as the Captains of the West challenged at the black gate. The Ring would have really helped though, and pleased Sauron.
________
Mobil economy run

[Gothmog]

To start with I have to confess something: I haven't read through all the posts in this thread so it is possible that I repeat things that are already said. But anyway, here's my view on this topic:

It's hard to tell who's the master. Of Turin it is said "Master of fate, by fate mastered" and I think this is similiar to the Sauron-Ring case. "Sauron, Master of the Ring, by the Ring mastered".

But why would someone do something as stupid as putting his power in a simple piece of jewelry, making himself vulnerable? Well one thing is for sure, Sauron wasn't stupid. He wouldn't have made the Ring if it wouldn't grant him greater powers. And with it's power to rule over the other rings, it would have given him a strong weapon against the elves and men. Now that plan didn't work as it was supposed to, Celebrimbor suspected something and made the Three. But I think that the Ring still gave Sauron greater powers than he would have gotten without it.

The fact that it made him vulnerable then?. Well, except for not being stupid, we also know of his pride. He wouldn't dream of losing the Ring, he was after all the Dark Lord! Of course it made him vulnerable, but only if it was taken from him and that wasn't supposed to happen.

But can we say that the ring is the true master? I think not. Within lay the power of Sauron, so one can say that it was a part of him. And even if it had it's own powers, it couldn't use it in full without the hand of it's master, as well as it's master Sauron couldn't use his powers fully without the Ring. So it's a give and take relation. The fact that Sauron was destroyed with the ring doesn't prove that it was his master, but they were depending on each other. If there was some other way of erasing Sauron (throw him into the Void maybe?), then perhaps the power of the ring would have been undone with him?

[Gurthang]

Great stuff, Gothmog!

I have suddenly thought of something else. Since Sauron and the Ring are essentially the same, despite their seperation, we've said that it is likely that none could 'master' the other. But I wonder if Sauron could master himself?

Perhaps Sauron did not possess all the self-control we would normally think such a tyrant would have(not that most tyrants always display overwhelming self-control!). Meaning, he could not control himself due to his anger, pride, or arrogance. If he did lack enough self-control, then maybe it is not so far off to say that he could not control his alter self, which is the Ring. Basically, neither the Ring nor Sauron were the master, because Sauron did not have the 'will' (not the best word) to control even himself.

Although, if you then assume the fact that the Ring's main power was in controlling or dominating other wills, it could mean that Sauron put much of his (limited) self-controlling power into the Ring. This would make me wonder if it didn't weaken his own, thus giving the Ring more dominating power than it's maker.

[Gothmog]

Although, if you then assume the fact that the Ring's main power was in controlling or dominating other wills, it could mean that Sauron put much of his (limited) self-controlling power into the Ring. This would make me wonder if it didn't weaken his own, thus giving the Ring more dominating power than it's maker.

Interesting thinking, but is the power of self-control the same as the power to dominate others? Or is it possible that Sauron, though a lack of self-control, was able to control other's as the Ring was?

The lack of self-control shown by Sauron is more depending on his pride, his greed and lack of feelings for other living beings. It's not the power of his will that is to weak, but he doesn't have the will to stop himself, he rather enjoys not stopping himself...

Sorry, I don't have time to fully explain my thoughts about this, but I'll hopefully be back soon...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Good theories. Looking back, it does seem likely that Sauron had little control over himself.

Sauron should have waited longer before making the One Ring, so that the suspicions of Celebrimbor would have wavered.