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07-07-2005, 03:02 AM | #1 |
Animated Skeleton
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Tolkien-founder of new religion?
I was browsing through some old threads when I came upon the one discussing the new found "hobbit" species in South Asia. ( I really hope some underwater archeological expedition digs up Glorfindel's grave. That would be an eye opener!) Well, that set me thinking.
Some of my friends, well educated class, seem to believe in epics (Indian especially, I am one) being reality and seem to believe that giants existed at one time, and that too commonly among our species (one gave me a reference of a character being 12 feet tall ). He says that is how the pyramids were built. I have to tell you that Indian epics are very closely associated with the Hindu religion. (Can someone give me proper proofs of existance of giants?) I, personally am an atheist and possibly one of the biggest critics. My belief is that these epics, if they did describe events of that age of the world were glorified hugely as they were passed down to us. They were after all transferred mouth to mouth for long time and could easily have been modified. I heard that was the case even with the Bible. (And I am not talking of Da Vinci code.) Sorry for that into if it hurt someone's feelings. But here is what I meant to say. Can Tolkien's ideas be started into a new religion? You might say it basically follows Christianity but the basic plot outline is same for quite a lot of religions. Imagine if some day people look back to our time, to Tolkien as the "prophet" and discover proofs of religious cults named barrowdowns and so on. If we can find sufficient number of followers to start with, I believe it is possible. I don't mean it to happen. I have enough with religions. But is that not how they started? Powerful ones showing proofs of stuff , like the "hobbit people" and sway others. I guess Tolkien's world has enough stuff on Gods, Demons and Others. Well, if you believe in one, why not in the other?
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07-07-2005, 12:51 PM | #2 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Tolkien's works have been 'adopted' by a number of 'Pagan' writers (see here
There are a couple of tarot decks based on LotR, & I know of at least one book, The Magical World of JRR Tolkien, by Gareth Knight, which delves into the symbolism of the Legendarium & includes a 'magical' Ritual. I realise that none of this answers your question, but I think maybe it shows that the tendency to approach Tolkien's writings from a 'religious/spiritual' viewpoint has already begun. |
07-07-2005, 02:02 PM | #3 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
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There is alot of religion in Tolkien's works. I mean, he has gods and demi-gods and stuff. I could definatly see some extremist sorts taking that stuff seriously, although I doubt that any religion based on Tolkien will become more than a cult. People are very critical nowadays, and I don't think many would follow a religion based on a purely fictional story.
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Also, just looking at the earliest copy we have now in comparison to when it was written, there is only a few hundred years for most of the new testament books. There is a much bigger space between other ancient writtings, think plato, stuff like that. Funnily, I've never heard anyone complain about the accuracy of those documents.
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07-07-2005, 02:20 PM | #4 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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There are some differences between LotR and the Bible (surprisingly, ). Tolkien's work was published, was put into print, and though there have been some small differences with edited, 'new' versions, his work has pretty much been set in stone from the beginning. The Bible has had a different evolution, being translated from many other languages into the form it takes today, so much that was originally there may have been 'lost in translation'. We also have to take into account that even though scribes aimed to be faithful in what they copied, they often worked under a system of patronage and may have been required to excise unpalatable elements, according to their sponsors.
Three of the four gospels apparently are drawn from one source, which I was taught was known as 'Q', John is the exception. But Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written for different audiences. Imagine if LotR had evolved in this way. Though it does beg the question of whether, in future years, the author could be lost, and differing versions (the 10th film version, the 15th cartoon version, the sit-com, the soap, whatever the imagination may conjour up...) may dilute the original. This is a world which in many cases is more secular, and we see people seriously calling themsleves Jedi Knights or Vampires or reincarnations of Cleopatra, so the idea of Tolkien's work forming the basis of a faith is not entirely off the wall.
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07-07-2005, 08:01 PM | #5 |
Animated Skeleton
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Well Arwen, I didn't mean the Bible was modified along the centuries.
I meant, it was written to suit prefrences (in the 3rd century of so, by the church), but here is not the place to discuss it. What I wanted was whether illiterate and ignorant can be swayed by a "Tolkienian Bible" which is quite complete with Genisis and all?
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Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us. |
07-08-2005, 09:17 AM | #6 | |
Shadowed Prince
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Tolkien, on the other hand, was quite definitely a man who lived in the 20th Century. He doesn't claim to have been influenced by a Holy Spirit either. When the author himself maintains that his work is one of fiction, I cannot see anybody hijacking it and using it as an actual account of the past. You speak also of the illiterate and the ignorant. Neither of these groups would be reading Tolkien, and to have it read to them, they would need to seek the literate, who would be able to explain the fictional nature of the books. Oh, and welcome to the Downs. It's most pleasing to see a man from the motherland here. |
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07-08-2005, 08:51 PM | #7 | |
Dead Serious
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07-08-2005, 01:39 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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A new religion? Egad! I hope not!
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07-13-2005, 07:17 AM | #9 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
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I have a question, it has come to my attention that this 'Religion' does not have a main theme. What would be the point? Most other religions have a main point or theme to fallow. I suppose that that is what we are discussing, right? I suppose that you people are discussing what the religions guidelines and purposes would be. Christianity has a point, it makes since. But how would the 'Tolkien-ism' or 'Eruism' work? Would people worship Eru or the creator of the fictional LOTR world, Tolkien? Would the 'Religion's' goal be to make our world a better place, or to give people security and assurance? Would people go to a kind of ' LOTR Church' and read from the LOTR books as Christians do with the Scripture? Would this 'Religion' just be to fill the void in peoples lives? And by the way, as a Christian, I know for a fact that if J. R. R. Tolkien was indeed a Christian (as I've heard), he would have hated the idea or fact of people making a 'Religion' out of his books!
daeron- Why do you want to create this 'Religion'? What thing or fact about Christianity disappointed you? If you want to email me personally, we can discuss this subject through personal email. Inless you want to discuss it in public, which I don't mind. -Turgon- |
07-13-2005, 07:58 AM | #10 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Other than that, one might simply try to live a life as the heroes/heroines/prototypes of old exemplified. Note that it would seem that people in ME somehow have an innate understanding of good and evil, and choose one path or the other.
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07-13-2005, 08:44 AM | #11 | ||||
Etheral Enchantress
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1. to provide a set of laws and guidelines by which to live your life - to give structure to a chaotic civilization; if you were motivated by a supernatural force, you would be more likely to abide by these guidelines - since most deities are said to know when you lie, and to be aware of your every move and thought. You would be more likely to temper yourself, and therefore it allows the race to live in relative peace within itself. 2. to explain "miraculous" seeming natural occurences - the world provides many splendid things, some explained by science, some not; Religion is the Science of many people: it explains why things occur. The Silmarillion, while not as specific as the Bible, does contain such things - through the parables found within the text, they give hints that the benevolent will ultimately triumph, that love of another (be he or she of any race) is a most divine thing; and it also explains things such as why the stars are in the sky, who controls the earth, etc. Quote:
Let it be noted that I am in no way about to follow a Tolkien-based religion: I just entirely understand the legitimacy it would have in the world with other religions. Quote:
And, even though you are a Christian and I am not, I think you are in no more position to say how Tolkien would react to people founding a religion than I am. There is not just one Christianity - and even within Catholicism, people believe different things. Why would Tolkien create such a rich history - delving into lineages, histories and even tongues - if he did not want people at least to lose themselves in his created mythology? He even admittedly was quoted saying that he himself often lost himself in his own world - his own creation. It became almost like an addiction, I would say, that he had to build on this world. It is very, very understandable in my view - and as a person whose main hobby in her off time is to write, I envy him for finding a world that did that for him. And as I said, I don't think Tolkien would have necessarily wanted me to hang a ring around my neck and mutter "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" every time the mood strikes me. But I don't necessarily think he would scorn those who did so. Quote:
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"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes |
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07-13-2005, 09:57 AM | #12 |
Animated Skeleton
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Turgon, I don't know if you've read my first post where I mentioned I am an atheist. I don't have anything against Christianity more than I do against my parents' religion. My arguments take it as example because most people here seem to be Christians and it is more popular. And I don't want to start it.
I believe Silmarillion would act the part of the Old Testament ( And on that day God spoke to Tuor and so on...) but others don't resemble the Gospels. Gospels are preachings which have not been emphasised in Tolkien's works. He himself says his works are not meant to preach. But those can be added later on by a "Tolkienian Church". Tolkien's works are always compared only to Christianity, but I find it close even to many other religions around the world (may not be intentional on Tolkien's part). Chinese idea of "Dragon eating the Sun" (which also exists in Hinduism, though in a different form) is mentioned in Silmarillion, and many of Tolkien's tales resemble many stories from Hinduism (only one I know in detail) in style, they contain creatures of the same types, immortal, Godly, Tree creatures, Skin changers... and most importantly as with most religious stories, a clear distinction in good and evil parties. What it lacks is a set of precise guidelines, A Bhagavat Gita of the Hindus, Gospels of Christians, Quran of Muslims and others. That can be taken care of (once Tolkien Estate lays down rights) , and indeed I believe if a Tolkien Religion had cropped up 3000 years ago, they would certainly have been written. Can someone tell me whether Islam originated with prophet Mohammed or did it exist before? I am interested deeply in Mythology and can you give me references to Islamic stories, if any exist. If it did start with one person, can Eruism not do so?
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Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us. Last edited by daeron; 07-15-2005 at 05:43 AM. |
07-13-2005, 12:01 PM | #13 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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07-13-2005, 03:36 PM | #14 |
Etheral Enchantress
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This has a lot of information on Islam - including links to other sites, in case you're interested daeron. Religious Tolerance.org is a great site about all different religions in general, actually - it has information on the actual site along with links to other sites with even more information. It also recommends books to read on the subject, etc.
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"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes |
07-14-2005, 02:32 AM | #15 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
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I would have been disappointed, if not entirely annoyed. My works are indirectly but a 'product' of my faith, yet people are placing them on a pedestal that is not rightly theirs. They worship that which is created by one who is merely created herself. Which is weird, to say the least. |
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08-08-2005, 05:13 AM | #16 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Hah.. Hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings but you shold see my LotR fan+teen-angst-anti-christian friends in a church. They modify every prayer and every religious song into some kind of Ilúvatar-religions -thing. And in a christian confirmation camp my friend intended to say to the priest that she can't pray the God because she believes in Eru. So that's sometimes funny but a bit ridiculous. My conclusion's that no one really believes in Eru, but people might consider it as a nice joke or some fanatical fans might be gone too far...
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08-08-2005, 02:34 PM | #17 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
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dude!!! to dig up an elfs bones!!! i would scream if it really happened...and after than, make up millions of theories, etc, etc, etc, etc.... .... ...
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07-15-2005, 06:11 AM | #18 |
Animated Skeleton
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Davem, what stops a person from declaring anything as "God revealed" ?
I don't intend to try and make you doubt your faith, but just think if a "Tolkienian Gospel" (properly written) is carried around the world by a person as being "God revealed", there would be many who would flock to him (Of course, he would no doubt be dead before he leaves the city, courtesy fanatics and politicians ). Are there not many conmen around the world who take advantage of people's religious feelings and superstition? Suppose, even today, I find an undiscovered island with people who have no knowledge of the world outside, I would be able to talk them into accepting "Eruism" as their faith and me as a Prophet. If the world were invaded by aliens who declared to be messengers of God, would not the ignorant believe them? And Vanima, thanks for the links. They were really good. We should make efforts to get the site publically known. There are a few eyeopeners on Islam there. Especially the quotes from Quran.
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Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us. |
07-15-2005, 10:02 AM | #19 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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And yet these people still believe and support these persons. This example has stated the following:
Anyway, my point is that if I wanted to promote Eruism, I wouldn't come out and start shouting about it. I would find a more isolated and less-informed group of souls that already have some belief and slowly move them via new revelation over to Eruism. As an example, I could state that the Christian God's true name is Eru, as this is the true 'true' translation of YHWH. And then just go from there... If the person cited in the link can move people that far away from the Christian doctrine, then I don't see why I couldn't move them a bit further. And lastly, how many writers, prophets and historical figures are screaming from the grave, "That's not what I meant!"
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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07-15-2005, 09:57 PM | #20 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 32
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Signing Off
I want to inform you all that I will be off the Downs for some time now. I hope to have my own Thread ready when I come back. I am not going to be back for a while due to the poor internet accses where I am going. I might get on every once in a while to check how some of the Threads are going and what twist the convrsation is making. It's been a plesure talking to you all, nice talking to you in spicific daeron. I'll be praying for you.
God bless, Turgon |
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