Why Entwives? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Frodo Baggins · 06-20-2005, 07:41 AM

My dad and I spent Father's Day watching The Two Towers extended edition. (what better way to spend Father's Day?). He had an interesting thought which made me think. Why are the lady Ents called Entwives? As Dad said, "wife" denoted some kind of covenant or bond. Why not just call them Ent women or she-Ents or Entesses or Ent Ladies or lady Ents or Ent lasses? Any thoughts on this? I certainly cannot think of a thing.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 06-20-2005, 08:21 AM

You know, I'd never thought of that before, but "entwife" does suggest a certain reliance on ents. It's like my mom always says when I introduce her. "Fea, when you introduce me as "this is my mom", they have no idea how to address me." It's as though my sheer unthinking sort of strips my mom of any identity besides "Fea's mom".

I wonder if that was intentional on Tolkien's part, to make Entwives so attached even though they are so distant. Perhaps that's the very reason.

Bêthberry · 06-20-2005, 09:23 AM

It could be a philological point. If I am remembering correctly, I think there is a language where the word wife means 'housey woman.' Or is it woman and 'housey wife'? Turkish? I'll have to look that up.

Well, I am serious about that phrase representing a point about language rather than any cultural or social attempt on Tolkien's part to subsume the female ents totally under their role as partner. Rather funny, though, as they are claimed to be so domineering over their gardens, that they should be so 'owned' themselves.

littlemanpoet · 06-20-2005, 10:06 AM

Perhaps 'Entwife' was the Ents' name for them, but not their name for themselves?

I had been taught that 'wife' was simply a cognate for 'woman', I suppose with the added sense of ownership, as Bethberry alluded to. Of course, that marital ownership thing does cut both ways, I believe, in historically Germanic cultures.

My sense, in answer to Fea, is that an Ent calling his "spouse" Entwife is tantamount to saying that there is an insuperable connection, and the ownership does stretch both ways. The Ents are saying they can't really do without the Entwives, which, of course, is quite correct, despite the ability of Trees to turn into Ents.

Mithalwen · 06-20-2005, 10:09 AM

I thought that wife just meant woman originally -as in midwife meaning "with woman" ...

Bêthberry · 06-20-2005, 10:20 AM

Right you are Mithalwen and littlemanpoet. As the venerable OED claims:

Quote:

A woman: formerly in a general sense; in later use restricted to a woman of humble rank or of low employment. (J), esp. one engaged in the sale of some commodity. Now dial esp. in compound words such as Ale-wife, Apple-wife, Fishwife, Old wife, Oyster wife.

See, a point about language.

06-20-2005, 07:41 AM	#1
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Why Entwives? My dad and I spent Father's Day watching The Two Towers extended edition. (what better way to spend Father's Day?). He had an interesting thought which made me think. Why are the lady Ents called Entwives? As Dad said, "wife" denoted some kind of covenant or bond. Why not just call them Ent women or she-Ents or Entesses or Ent Ladies or lady Ents or Ent lasses? Any thoughts on this? I certainly cannot think of a thing. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

06-20-2005, 08:21 AM	#2
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	You know, I'd never thought of that before, but "entwife" does suggest a certain reliance on ents. It's like my mom always says when I introduce her. "Fea, when you introduce me as "this is my mom", they have no idea how to address me." It's as though my sheer unthinking sort of strips my mom of any identity besides "Fea's mom". I wonder if that was intentional on Tolkien's part, to make Entwives so attached even though they are so distant. Perhaps that's the very reason. __________________ peace

06-20-2005, 10:09 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I thought that wife just meant woman originally -as in midwife meaning "with woman" ... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

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06-20-2005, 09:23 AM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,997	It could be a philological point. If I am remembering correctly, I think there is a language where the word wife means 'housey woman.' Or is it woman and 'housey wife'? Turkish? I'll have to look that up. Well, I am serious about that phrase representing a point about language rather than any cultural or social attempt on Tolkien's part to subsume the female ents totally under their role as partner. Rather funny, though, as they are claimed to be so domineering over their gardens, that they should be so 'owned' themselves.

06-20-2005, 10:06 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Perhaps 'Entwife' was the Ents' name for them, but not their name for themselves? I had been taught that 'wife' was simply a cognate for 'woman', I suppose with the added sense of ownership, as Bethberry alluded to. Of course, that marital ownership thing does cut both ways, I believe, in historically Germanic cultures. My sense, in answer to Fea, is that an Ent calling his "spouse" Entwife is tantamount to saying that there is an insuperable connection, and the ownership does stretch both ways. The Ents are saying they can't really do without the Entwives, which, of course, is quite correct, despite the ability of Trees to turn into Ents.