Reincarnation

[Celebuial]

I know this has been mentioned in other places, but I don't think it has really been discussed in-depth (sorry if it has, but I couldn't find it!)

I'm confused.... Is Glorfindel in LOTR the Glorfindel from The Sil? Surely if he was he wouldn't have just been left behind to help guard Imladris when the Nine Walkers set out? More to the point:

The whole idea of reincarnation in Arda confuses me. I have only read the first two volumes of HoME so far, so bear with me, but I can't seem to find much that makes sense without being contradictory. I haven't read the letters either, so you may be able to see why I'm so confused.

At first I thought that reincarnation wasn't possible in Arda. Then I thought it was possible for Elves who have been slain or who have died of grief. Then I read the Story of Beren and Luthien.

For about three years now I've been completly flumoxed by the whole idea. I think it's a shme that I don't at all understand this concept as I think it's one of the really intersting little things that you can find in Tolkien's work.

I would really appreciate it if one of you omniscient Tolkien experts could shed some light on this for me: I'm worried that if I don't understand it sometime, I may end up loosing sleep, and I'm certainly missing out!

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien changed his mind about Elvish reincarnation (as he did about so many things). The earlier conception was that an Elvish spirit ('fea') could be reborn in one of his or her descendants. The child would have the soul, the mind, and the memories of the ancestor.

At some point, however, Tolkien decided that this was not workable, because in effect the parents of the reborn Elf would be cheated out of having a new child. Iluvatar wouldn't allow this. Rebirth didn't fit with the overarching metaphysics he had developed for his world. So he replaced the concept of rebirth with one of reincarnation. The spirit of an Elf, he supposed, retains an exact memory of its body even after death. The Valar, then, are capable of creating a new body for the spirit, identical to the old.

The short answer about Glorfindel of Rivendell is that he is indeed the same as the Glorfindel of Gondolin who died in combat with a Balrog. That this conception was present from the time of the writing of LotR is clear from a note in the outlining for the Rivendell chapter, something to the effect of "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin", I believe. Many years later, in fact shortly before his death, Tolkien considered the character of Glorfindel in two essays - and though he does not start with it as an assumption, he does come to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same as Glorfindel of Gondolin.

The note on Glorfindel from the writing of LotR is found, I believe, in HoMe VI (unless my memory is deceiving me; it could be VII). The texts dealing with the metaphysical issues of rebirth and reincarnation are found in HoMe X. The late essays on Glorfindel are in HoMe XII.

I hope that was helpful. I definitely recommend continuing with the HoMe series; there are some complexities that I glossed over in my summary.

[Celebuial]

Thank you so much!!!!!! That certainly helped a lot! I will definitely continue with HoME. Thanks again.

[Nukapei]

This is something I have often wondered, too. And having access only to The Hobbit, LotR, and the Sil, it's not something I've been able to rightly answer! I hope it's okay to continue this discusson . . .

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The spirit of an Elf, he supposed, retains an exact memory of its body even after death. The Valar, then, are capable of creating a new body for the spirit, identical to the old.

So, does this mean that all Elves are reincarnated? The way you worded this makes it sound like the Valar only do this some of the time! And if so, are they reincarned into Valinore? What happens after The Undying Lands fill with reincarned Elves? Does anyone know this, or is it just something Tolkien never touched on?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

So, does this mean that all Elves are reincarnated? The way you worded this makes it sound like the Valar only do this some of the time! And if so, are they reincarned into Valinore? What happens after The Undying Lands fill with reincarned Elves? Does anyone know this, or is it just something Tolkien never touched on?

I was talking about this just the other day! Presumably, many Elves died and passed to the Halls of Mandos, where they are given the choice to be 'reborn'; yet not all are given this choice, it should be noted.

Of those who are reborn, I wonder whether they 'reappear' in Valinor or Middle Earth? Do they have a choice? The example of Glorfindel means that either they can be reborn in Middle Earth, and therefore have a choice, or that there is a Straight Road out of Valinor.

The idea that there could be a choice got me thinking a little more. Obviously we only see a small proportion if the Elves who ever lived in Middle Earth, but a fairly significant number of those die, so it might be expected that we would have seen many more names than Glorfindel's appearing again after their deaths. So why don't we see this? I came up with two answers.

Firstly, it could be that an Elf who is reborn either simply cannot or must choose to return to Middle Earth. Perhaps their experience in Valinor affects them so that they wish to remain and not return to Middle Earth. Or the experience of death may be intensely troubling so that they prefer to remain in the Undying Lands until such a time as their kin return to them there. I do wonder if Osanwe works across the sea (maybe not since the breaking of the world), as if it did then physical separation might not be quite so hard to bear.

My second answer is quite a haunting thought. Those who die and pass to the Halls of Mandos may learn something once there, and they may choose not to be reborn in a physical body. Obviously they can never pass beyond the confines of the world like Men, but this is the closest they could come to that, and it may be a welcome experience for some (and Elves do tire of life and retire from it) to forsake physical existence.

They may indeed learn that to be reborn can be a troubling thing in itself - having to take up a life where it left off, coupled with regaining a family and partner who might have grieved for them - after all, they would not know if a person would be granted the gift of being reborn or even if they would accept it.

It fascinates me to think that Elves may learn something in the Halls of Mandos, something about their nature which is so profound that they are likely to choose not to return to Middle Earth or even to be reborn at all. That's one of Tolkien's 'wow' moments to me.

[Nukapei]

That makes sense. Where did you get all this, if you don't mind me asking!

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende wrote:

I was talking about this just the other day! Presumably, many Elves died and passed to the Halls of Mandos, where they are given the choice to be 'reborn'; yet not all are given this choice, it should be noted.

True. Also, there are Elves who refuse the summons to Mandos and exist as disembodied spirits (as is discussed in HoMe X).

Of those who are reborn, I wonder whether they 'reappear' in Valinor or Middle Earth? Do they have a choice? The example of Glorfindel means that either they can be reborn in Middle Earth, and therefore have a choice, or that there is a Straight Road out of Valinor.

When it was rebirth, I expect that the Elf's fea could be reborn into the line of any of his or her descendants, wherever they might dwell.

With regard to the later reincarnation, however, I have always been under the impression that this takes place in Aman. In the "Glorfindel" essays in HoMe XII this seems to be taken for granted - Tolkien speculates on when Glorfindel could have returned from Aman to Middle-earth. My impression is that this return is a kind of special case; most Elves who are reincarnated remain in the West.