Luthien: Maia or Elf.

[narfforc]

If Luthien had never met Beren, should she have been given the choice of which kindred she belonged to like The Peredhil had?. The main problems are that Melian clothed herself in the flesh of Arda, in the form of an elf. Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

[davem]

Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

My initial thought is that fea is fea, & that it doesn't differ across 'species': ie, the 'fea' of Man, Elf or Valar/Maiar is of the same nature, but of greater or lesser power. The difference between the different 'species' is down to the 'relationship' of fea with hroa. For Valar, & Maiar generally (with obvious exceptions) hroa is an optional accessory. For Elves, it is a permanent state, to the extent that if their body dies they take on a new one exactly like the old. For Men the fea is only temporarily bound to the hroa.

So, the 'choice' of the peredhil does not involve a change in their fea but rather a change in the 'relationship' of their fea to their hroa: they can choose whether they will accept the inevitable future sundering of their fea from their hroa (ie die at some point & leave the circles of the world) or whether they will accept a permanent 'union' ('marriage', which none may put assunder??) with the stuff of Arda.

In the case of Luthien, I suppose that her choice would have been either to accept her father's state (permanent union of her fea with her hroa) or her mother's (optional union of the two as it suited her) but either way she would have been bound within the circles of the world, which only men could pass beyond.

Of course, not having my books with me, I could be completely wrong, so its probably best to ignore me....

[narfforc]

Thanks for that Davem. The thing I find strange is that when Luthien shows forth her power (Is it Elven, Maia or Hybrid). She defeats the mighty Sauron and sends the even more powerful Morgoth to sleep. I dont think any of the mighty elf-lords had such power, therefore Luthien was using something stronger than elf-magic for the want of a better word. If she chose to be Maia then she would not end up in the Halls of Mandos, but would be free to roam as her mother does, the Gardens of Lorien. If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different. All (non Ainur) are of the body of Arda, but the spirits come from The Flame Imperishable and their fates are sundered. None of The Ainur have died, their bodies may be destroyed, but Morgoth, Sauron and probably Saruman still exist outside, in the void. The spirits of Men, Elves and dwarves are treated differently, I may be wrong, but I do not know of any Maia dying and going to Mandos, where are The Valaraukar?.

SEE YOU IN BRUM.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by narfforc

The thing I find strange is that when Luthien shows forth her power (Is it Elven, Maia or Hybrid). She defeats the mighty Sauron and sends the even more powerful Morgoth to sleep.

While she did put Morgoth to sleep, she just brushed her cloak in Sauron's face and Huan attacked. Regardless though, it was her actions that influenced Morgoth's loss of a Silmaril and Sauron's descent to being Huan's *****.

Originally Posted by narfforc

None of The Ainur have died, their bodies may be destroyed, but Morgoth, Sauron and probably Saruman still exist outside, in the void.

While Saruman might be sticking around as a spirit, Sauron seems to have diminished past that to a state of being "dust in the wind," so to speak. Morgoth seems to have been totally obliterated when the world was remade in the very end.

I've always seen Luthien as a very powerful elf who was skilled with her strength.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Narfforc

If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different. All (non Ainur) are of the body of Arda, but the spirits come from The Flame Imperishable and their fates are sundered.

I suppose this is it - the nature of the union of spirit & matter. In Men the union must be broken at some point, in Elves is can never be broken while Arda lasts, in Valar/Maiar it is optional. But none of this means that the fea is different, only the nature of its union with the hroa.

If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different.

Certainly their destiny is different, but is their essence? But even then we know from Morgoth's fate that spending time in Mandos was not impossible for Ainur, it just tended not to happen to the others as they generally towed the party line sufficiently not to get thrown in the jug.

something stronger than elf-magic for the want of a better word.

Perhaps this 'power' has its source in the sana - ok, I don't know what I'm talking about here, as I've only read Osanwe Kenta properly once & skimmed iot a couple of times, but that's the only other possibility I can concieve for Luthien's power - its certainly not physical in origin, & I'm not sure it can be classed as 'spiritual' either. This leaves me with the possibility that magical power has a 'mental' source & origin.

So, Luthien's mind/will is the source of her power over Morgoth.......???????

LOOKING FORWARD TO IT

[Mithalwen]

I can't help wondering (and I know this is one of my pet hobby horses cf Music and Magic in Middle Earth ) if the fact that Luthien's power is manifested in song is important .

The world is created through music (simplification I know) and it is through song that Luthien charms both Morgoth and Mandos. Melian would have surely participated in the music of the Ainur and maybe something was passed on to Luthien. Finrod uses a "song of wizardry in his duel with Sauron"

Also bear in minds that Thingol was a mighty Elf Lord - one of the 3 Originals so to speak - to put it crudely the power of the elf lords seems to be diluted with each generation ( this is supported by the fact that elf parents put more of their own strength into their children and that consequently the larger families among them occured in the early years when they were at their peak). As a first generation descendant of an original elf lord, Luthien would be nigh on a par with Fingolfin and Feanor without the not inconsequential benefits of Melian as a mother.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Also bear in minds that Thingol was a mighty Elf Lord - one of the 3 Originals so to speak - to put it crudely the power of the elf lords seems to be diluted with each generation ( this is supported by the fact that elf parents put more of their own strength into their children and that consequently the larger families among them occured in the early years when they were at their peak). As a first generation descendant of an original elf lord, Luthien would be nigh on a par with Fingolfin and Feanor without the not inconsequential benefits of Melian as a mother.

I don't know that Elf-power is diluted as the years go by. After all, it is pretty much apparent that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were not Imin, Tata, and Enel because they could NOT have been First-Generation Elves. The Reason: Ingwe has a sibling (either Indis or her mother), and Elwe has at least two (Olwe and Elmo), as well as "kin" (Cirdan and Eol, according to some versions). Consequently, they cannot have been "first-generation", and thus your theory starts to totter.

Furthermore, the generation(s) of Elves that produced all of known big families were the generations living in the peace and bliss of the noontide of Valinor. It is stated by Tolkien that the Elves generally held off having children in times of danger or war. Note that while Finwe has four or five children, and over a dozen grandchildren (and a couple of great-grandchildren), his contemporary Elwe, who is living in the much more dangerous Middle-earth, has only one child. True, this could be partly a product of the fact that Elwe was married to a Maia, but his brother Elmo is also far behind Finwe in terms of progeny.

It is true that a previous generation of Elves would, by product of his/her longer life, have a greater store of knowledge than the next generation, but this is a result of a longer life than anything else. I would agree that at the end of the First Age, Gil-galad seems like a pretty timid little king compared with Fingolfin, Finrod, Turgon, Maedhros, etc., but at the Battle of the Last Alliance, he seems (in my eyes) to be every bit as great a king as Fingon in the Nirnaeth. Similarly, Elrond's wisdom at the end of the Third Age is reminiscent of Thingol's in the First.

[davem]

Random thoughts on Choice':

Could the choice of becoming mortal for an elf if they marry a mortal be due to the Christian idea that when a couple marry they become 'one flesh'. If the difference between the races is not due to differences in their fea but in the relationship of their fea to their hroa, then for the two to truly become 'one' flesh their natures must 'match'. So, as the 'gift' of Eru to Men (ie death) cannot be withdrawn (Tuor???), it would be necessary for the Elf to change the nature of the 'relationship' of their fea to their hroa & hence of their psycho-spiritual relationship with Arda itself.

I think this is possibly a central matter in Luthien's (& Idril & Arwen's) choice. Its not simply about not being seperated from their beloved when they die, but of their essential nature being changed. The next question that occurs is how this affects their relationship with their former families. Is it simply a matter of their seperation at death - 'loss eternal' - or is their more to it? Is there a sort of 'one flesh' relationship between the Elves of particular families? Does the 'Choice' involve almost a kind of spiritual 'divorce' from other members of the family which even during life, while the 'former' Elf & their family remain in Arda, results in a breaking of their intimacy? I wonder about the reason for Beren & Luthien, on their return into Arda, not going to live in Menegroth where they would surely (at first thought) have been welcome. Perhaps, if I'm right here, such a return would have been too painful for all concerned as the former intimacy between Thingol, Melian & Luthien would have been no more & what's more, they would have known it never could be again....

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

One can only speculate why Beren preferred life with Luthien to the Gift of Illuvator, afterall they only get to live again for a short while.

Apparently though, Melian remains a Maiar for the rest of her days, even when Thingol was slain.:

Thereafter Melian spoke to none save to Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.

However, much more interesting is the fact that even before Melian left Doriath, her power was withdrawn:

But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.

The questionable point here is whether Melian withdrew her power from the realm of her own free will. Perhaps the power of Melian to protect Doriath lay solely on her 'other part' which is her bond with Thingol? Or was it simply that Melian was finally resigned to the fact that Doriath was doomed to destruction? Whatever the reason, there is reason to believe that the 'spirit'/ fea, is the underlying source of power.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I don't know that Elf-power is diluted as the years go by. After all, it is pretty much apparent that were not Imin, Tata, and Enel because they could NOT have been First-Generation Elves. The Reason: Ingwe has a sibling (either Indis or her mother), and Elwe has at least two (Olwe and Elmo), as well as "kin" (Cirdan and Eol, according to some versions). Consequently, they cannot have been "first-generation", and thus your theory starts to totter.

.

You misunderstand - I did not say that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were first generation as in being "awoken" - although I would not necessarily regard the presence or absence of siblings as being a decisive factor since there are "brothers" among the Valar, and if Eru created them as brothers then there is no reason why he could or would not have created brothers among the first elves.
I cannot see that there is much to object to in my description of the aforementioned as "original elf lords", unless I have missed something in my reading of the Sil. Luthien is undeniably a first generation descendent of Thingol. So what I have said stands firm so far.

I did say it was a crude theory but surely it is a "truth universally acknowledged " that the Eldar were at their peak in the First Age? If I were going to make a hierachy of elf lords I can think of few sons I would place above their fathers. Of course birth in the blessed realm and the two trees is a factor. Galadriel is clearly the most inherently powerful elf in Middle Earth at the time of the War of the Ring.

As for the size of families - in HoME Tolkien states that Feanor was exceptional in having 7 children and that was the most ever, also that the strength of the parents is passed into the children.

But the main point which I was trying to make, is that Thingol was not exactly genetic garbage as a parent....

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But the main point which I was trying to make, is that Thingol was not exactly genetic garbage as a parent....

Okay, the main point is taken, Thingol is certainly a top-notch elf.

However, I have to disagree with your assessment of the capabilities of the later-age Elves. As you have it, Elrond should not be nearly as potent as Galadriel, coming as he does three more generations down the line, but at the end of the Third Age he seems to be pretty much on par with her, if not exactly so.

Furthermore, I still stand by my assertation that Gil-galad was as great a king or greater than his First Age predecessors. (Certainly he had a MUCH longer and more successful reign). In addition, I would say that the kingdom of Eregion was every bit as successful and grand as Hithlum, Himring, Nargothrond (although not Gondolin). Certainly, the craft of the Elves was amazing. With the exception of Gondolin, I would say that the craft of the Elves SUPERCEDED that of the First Age Elves (although not the Valinorean pre-trees craft).

In addition, by trotting out Galadriel as evidence of greater strength, you are somewhat undermining your theory, as Galadriel is two generations down from Finwe (and both Finwe and her father had large families), and should not thus be listed (by Tolkien in his later life) as perhaps as great an elf as Feanor, if in totally different ways.

Originally Posted by narfforc

If Luthien had never met Beren, should she have been given the choice of which kindred she belonged to like The Peredhil had?. The main problems are that Melian clothed herself in the flesh of Arda, in the form of an elf. Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

I will go and commune with Mandos. Perhaps he shall reveal it to us.

[narfforc]

I have always considered Luthien to be the greatest elf/non-elf to have ever existed, I believe her bloodline to be responsible for the good that survives the fall.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

As I said, this doesn't mean that the Elves of the later Ages were lesser beings than their ancestors, but it does imply that they believed they were.

It is apparent from the Athrabeth that elves do diminish in status while in Arda

- That I can well believe, said Finrod: that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning.