Leeches? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Shy Hobbit · 03-03-2003, 05:03 PM

In Return of the King, at the part where Eowyn is believed to be dead, a soldier (I forget the characters name and don't have a book handy) asks them something like "Don't you have leeches?"

I don't understand that at all. Can someone help me out?

Beren87 · 03-03-2003, 05:07 PM

Leeches is a archaic word for physician actually.

So the prince was simply asking if there was a doctor around.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

Iarwain · 03-03-2003, 05:16 PM

Yes, and leechcraft (also mentioned) is the practice of medicine.

Voralphion · 03-03-2003, 05:26 PM

I wasn't aware that leech was a term for doctor, but I thought that it was said because in the middle ages, leeches were used in the practice of medicine and is still used for some treatments today.

Beren87 · 03-03-2003, 05:31 PM

That's true, but considering the quote was

Quote:

Are there no leeches among you?

Then I would take it to be the archaic meaning.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-03-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

... in the middle ages, leeches were used in the practice of medicine and is still used for some treatments today.

Quite correct. In medieval times, leeches were used as a form of medical treatment. I believe (though I am no expert) that this is linked with the belief that the body was made up of four kinds of humour (or fluid), which were believed to influence a person's health. So, an excess of one type of humour was thought to cause disease and it was believed that a person could be healed by applying leeches to the body to draw out the excessive humour. It is because of this practice that doctors became known as "leeches", although I would imagine that the reference in the book is to the treatment rather than the practitioner.

Incidentallly, it is true that leeches are still used in medical treatment today [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] - although I think that there is now more of a scientific basis for it.

Edit: Actually, having now seen the quote, I agree with Beren87 - the reference seems to be to the practitioner, not the practice.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Iarwain · 03-03-2003, 06:44 PM

Funny, Saucepan, Did you attain you knowledge from a PBS special a while back on "Red Gold"? Probably not, but it is a very interesting doccumentary on the importance of blood through the ages.

Iarwain

Shy Hobbit · 03-04-2003, 09:04 AM

Thanks, all. It makes alot more sense now. I didn't see how leeches would help determine whether or not a person is dead or alive, but when used in terms of referring to a doctor, it's perfectly clear.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-25-2006, 05:23 AM

The English term derives from the Old English word læce, hence læcedom ('treatment, cure') and læcecræft (the practice of medicine). For the sake of comparison, one of the Old English words for the body was līc, whence derives the modern English word 'litch'. The similarity of the words for a physician and a leech (not to mention the association of the two) led to their being confused in Middle English, hence the confusing double meaning of the archaic English term.

ninja91 · 09-25-2006, 05:26 AM

Well, as far as I know, leeches would have been used to drain the blood from her broken arm. So I dont think an archaic meaning was intended.

Lalwendë · 09-25-2006, 06:07 AM

Interesting stuff!

I always assume that the modern term 'leech' or 'to leech' as in to scrounge or extract too much money out of someone came from the creature the 'leech' as it sucks blood. However, medieval doctors were also known as 'quacks' as they often peddled less than useful 'cures' - maybe the term 'leech' as in someone who extracts too much money from people could also come from the other meaning?

Gothmog · 09-25-2006, 06:22 AM

I guess the quote comes from the movie, not the book? I can't say that I remember it. But speaking of language and leeches, the leech used in medicine (in swedish called "blood-leech") is named Hirudo medicinalis in latin, a proof of its use to cure.

Nowadays, it's use in medicine is mainly in surgery, to improve a venous conguestion when a transplant is performed for example.

That was some unuseful facts. If the question was "Are there no leeches among you?", it seems as if it was the doctors the soldier was asking for. I can't imagine that there were any worms in the armies of Men!

mormegil · 09-25-2006, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothmog

I guess the quote comes from the movie, not the book? I can't say that I remember it.

No I believe it is the book.

Quote:

"Men of Rohan!" [Prince Imrahil] cried. "Are there no leeches among you? She is hurt, to the death maybe, but I deem that she let lives.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-25-2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

Well, as far as I know, leeches would have been used to drain the blood from her broken arm. So I dont think an archaic meaning was intended.

Leeches, as pointed out above, were primarily used to bleed patients, but not to relieve internal pressures. They were used to correct imbalances of the humours, which are entirely mythical complaints. Nobody would have thought of using a leech on Eowyn's broken arm.

Tolkien uses 'leech' and 'leechcraft' to mean 'physician' and 'medical practice' respectively at a number of points in LotR, notably in Theoden's words to Grima on casting him out of Edoras. As I mentioned above, the words for the parasitic swamp-dwelling invertebrate and a doctor were once completely separate, but merged before the modern English period. Tolkien's use of the older term is probably a reflection of his preference for 'real' English words: those which had derived from Old English. 'Doctor' and 'medicine' are borrowed terms.

To the best of my knowledge, the verb 'to leech' doesn't refer to doctors at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

leech (1) /litʃ/
–noun
1. any bloodsucking or carnivorous aquatic or terrestrial worm of the class Hirudinea, certain freshwater species of which were formerly much used in medicine for bloodletting.
2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.
3. Archaic. an instrument used for drawing blood.
–verb (used with object)
4. to apply leeches to, so as to bleed.
5. to cling to and feed upon or drain, as a leech: His relatives leeched him until his entire fortune was exhausted.
6. Archaic. to cure; heal.
–verb (used without object)
7. to hang on to a person in the manner of a leech: She leeched on to him for dear life.

[Origin: bef. 900; ME leche, OE læce; r. (by confusion with leech (2)) ME liche, OE lȳce; c. MD lieke; akin to OE lūcan to pull out, MHG liechen to pull]

—Related forms
leechlike, adjective

—Synonyms: bloodsucker; extortioner; sponger.

leech2 /litʃ/
–noun Archaic.
a physician.

[Origin: bef. 1150; ME leche, OE læce; c. OS lāki, OHG lāhhi, Goth lēkeis; akin to ON læknir]

mormegil · 09-25-2006, 09:49 AM

Continuing what Squatter already cited

Quote:

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

Main Entry: leech·craft
Pronunciation: 'lEch-"kraft
Function: noun
: the art of healing : medical knowledge and skill

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source
leechcraft

\Leech"craft`\ (-kr[.a]ft`), n. The art of healing; skill of a physician. [Archaic] --Chaucer.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
On-line Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source
leechcraft

leechcraft: in CancerWEB's On-line Medical Dictionary

Emphasis mine

03-03-2003, 05:03 PM	#1
Shy Hobbit Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In my own little world Posts: 201	Leeches? In Return of the King, at the part where Eowyn is believed to be dead, a soldier (I forget the characters name and don't have a book handy) asks them something like "Don't you have leeches?" I don't understand that at all. Can someone help me out? __________________ Make Middle-Earth a friendlier place, hug a balrog today! ~The Fellowship of the King~

03-03-2003, 05:16 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Yes, and leechcraft (also mentioned) is the practice of medicine. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-03-2003, 05:26 PM	#4
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	I wasn't aware that leech was a term for doctor, but I thought that it was said because in the middle ages, leeches were used in the practice of medicine and is still used for some treatments today. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

03-03-2003, 06:44 PM	#7
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Funny, Saucepan, Did you attain you knowledge from a PBS special a while back on "Red Gold"? Probably not, but it is a very interesting doccumentary on the importance of blood through the ages. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-04-2003, 09:04 AM	#8
Shy Hobbit Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In my own little world Posts: 201	Thanks, all. It makes alot more sense now. I didn't see how leeches would help determine whether or not a person is dead or alive, but when used in terms of referring to a doctor, it's perfectly clear. __________________ Make Middle-Earth a friendlier place, hug a balrog today! ~The Fellowship of the King~

03-03-2003, 05:07 PM	#2
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Leeches is a archaic word for physician actually. So the prince was simply asking if there was a doctor around. [ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

09-25-2006, 05:23 AM	#9
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Better late than never The English term derives from the Old English word læce, hence læcedom ('treatment, cure') and læcecræft (the practice of medicine). For the sake of comparison, one of the Old English words for the body was līc, whence derives the modern English word 'litch'. The similarity of the words for a physician and a leech (not to mention the association of the two) led to their being confused in Middle English, hence the confusing double meaning of the archaic English term. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

09-25-2006, 06:07 AM	#11
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Interesting stuff! I always assume that the modern term 'leech' or 'to leech' as in to scrounge or extract too much money out of someone came from the creature the 'leech' as it sucks blood. However, medieval doctors were also known as 'quacks' as they often peddled less than useful 'cures' - maybe the term 'leech' as in someone who extracts too much money from people could also come from the other meaning? __________________ Gordon's alive!

09-25-2006, 06:22 AM	#12
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	I guess the quote comes from the movie, not the book? I can't say that I remember it. But speaking of language and leeches, the leech used in medicine (in swedish called "blood-leech") is named Hirudo medicinalis in latin, a proof of its use to cure. Nowadays, it's use in medicine is mainly in surgery, to improve a venous conguestion when a transplant is performed for example. That was some unuseful facts. If the question was "Are there no leeches among you?", it seems as if it was the doctors the soldier was asking for. I can't imagine that there were any worms in the armies of Men! __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

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