The "if's" of the three Elven-Rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorthaur the Cruel · 01-08-2005, 07:37 PM

Ok, we all know that Sauron bound all the power of the great rings by chanting some sort of an evil spell & by knowing how many great rings exactly to enslave. Now supposing if he was totally oblivious to the existance of the Three, & left them out on his mojo in binding the great rings to himself, presumably, they would've been spared from the destruction of the One Ring. And if that happens, would the lingering elves would've stayed in Middle-earth knowing that the Three would still sustain them. What hypothesis can you come up?

Lolidir · 01-08-2005, 11:09 PM

that is a good question.

i must say that i am new to this forum thing and in some respect LOTR in general. i have read the books once but i know, well i can remember a lot more than a lot of others. i have tried reading The Silmarilion, but got tied up with books for school, so i wasnt able to finish. so i might not know as much as others but i am a very big fan and in time i think i will get up there along with the others.

well to give my opinion on the question.

if sauron had forgotten about the elven rings and nothing happened to them? well as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. i think it all depends on how much the elves would have gotten involved with the war and how many would have stayed, but thats talking about years and years of elves crossing over. ekves have been crossing over for many more years then just the time of the ring hadnt they? so in this case i think the elves would have continued to cross over depleting the numbers in middle earth. so in time i think the time of the elves would have ended, now it might not have been right then but as the new age begins and the race of men begins to rebuild the elves would slip quielty into the grey havens. so i think that even if sauron would have forgotten about the elven rings that the time of the elves would have still ended and they would pass fomr middle earth.

but like i said i havent read any other book than just the 3 and the hobbit so you might know something i dont and if so please enlighten me on it. this is just what i gather from the trilogy.

01-09-2005, 02:55 AM

Making the rings was beyond the skill of the elves alone: they were made under Sauron's personal direction, presumably so he could weave his influence into thier very fabric. In many ways, they were an extension os Sauron's power. As Galadriel said, if the one ring was destroyed, the power of the elven rings would also be lost.

gorthaur_cruel · 01-09-2005, 07:09 AM

Greetings, fellow Gorthaur.

Quote:

Ok, we all know that Sauron bound all the power of the great rings by chanting some sort of an evil spell & by knowing how many great rings exactly to enslave.

We do? I always thought that as Sauron taught the Elves how to make the Rings, he included a technique that allowed him to take control of it. It's as if Sauron gave them a program that the Elves editted a bit to make their own program, without knowing that there was a code included that allowed it to be easily hacked. So though Celebrimbor didn't actually use Sauron's help, his knowledge came from Sauron and so created it with the weakness built into the Ring-knowledge.

Of course, this is all just my speculation.

But even if the Three didn't fade, I think that the Elves would've eventually departed for Valinor. Remember that the Elves were already decreasing bit by bit during the Third Age. The loss of the Three only resulted in Galadriel and Elrond leaving, taking along much of their people.

Gorthaur the Cruel · 01-09-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Greetings, fellow Gorthaur.

We do? I always thought that as Sauron taught the Elves how to make the Rings, he included a technique that allowed him to take control of it. It's as if Sauron gave them a program that the Elves editted a bit to make their own program, without knowing that there was a code included that allowed it to be easily hacked. So though Celebrimbor didn't actually use Sauron's help, his knowledge came from Sauron and so created it with the weakness built into the Ring-knowledge.

Of course, this is all just my speculation.

But even if the Three didn't fade, I think that the Elves would've eventually departed for Valinor. Remember that the Elves were already decreasing bit by bit during the Third Age. The loss of the Three only resulted in Galadriel and Elrond leaving, taking along much of their people.

Hey Gorthaur! Yeah ok, your analogy of code & hacking regarding the rings is actually agreeable. But supposing, by a mere chance of good fortune, that the Three were not shorn of their powers... I doubt the elves would forsake Middle-earth. Although the doom of mandos is very clear, the elven-rings block the weariness of time.

Formendacil · 01-09-2005, 01:39 PM

Even though Sauron never touched the Three, and even if you could hold him COMPLETELY innocent of their making (which you can't, since he seems to have instigated the whole Ring-making process in Eregion), the Rings, up to and including the Three, are of their very nature, by what they are designed to do, wrong.

The Three Rings, like all the Rings, were created, as far as the Elves were concerned, with the intention of "preserving" middle-earth. In other words, they were trying to hold back the tide of time, and keep things as it was. As it was at that point was with the Elves as the dominant species and the major overlords. The Elves were trying to stop their Fading, and the impending Dominion of Men, which they knew must eventually come.

The time would have come eventually for the Dominion of Men. The Music of the Ainur directed that it must come eventually, and it would seem likely as well that the Elves would eventually realize what a selfish and sinful thing they were trying to do in holding back time. As well as impossible. You can hold back time for a while, but I don't think that even the Rings would have kept the Elves in middle-earth forever. All that the Rings were doing was making it worse, because they were able to remain in middle-earth in a nearer-perfect state for much longer, hence (being Elves) they were able to become more attached to their lands, and thus when the time came to depart, much more torn about having to leave.

Lolidir · 01-09-2005, 09:14 AM

[QUOTE=Lolidir]
as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. QUOTE]

after everything happened in the third age with the giant battles and everything the men were begining to emerge as the dominant race. and the elves would continue to cross over, for that is something they had been doing since before the third age isnt it? it was just a matter of time before they were all gone.

the other question is, What happend to the wood elves of Mirkwood? it doesnt ever say much about them. Gandalf had the other elven ring didnt he? so they were not bound to the rings fate. in fact they kept to themselves mostly. so i think that the elves of Elrond and Galadriel would have allg gone to the Grey Havens, but i think that the wood elves would have stuck around for at least a little while longer mainly because they keep to themsleves.

i hope i bring up a good point, as i have said i am new to this whole thing. doesnt hurt to try i guess.

01-08-2005, 07:37 PM	#1
Gorthaur the Cruel Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Mordor Posts: 150	The "if's" of the great rings of power. Ok, we all know that Sauron bound all the power of the great rings by chanting some sort of an evil spell & by knowing how many great rings exactly to enslave. Now supposing if he was totally oblivious to the existance of the Three, & left them out on his mojo in binding the great rings to himself, presumably, they would've been spared from the destruction of the One Ring. And if that happens, would the lingering elves would've stayed in Middle-earth knowing that the Three would still sustain them. What hypothesis can you come up? __________________ I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. Last edited by Gorthaur the Cruel; 01-09-2005 at 04:52 PM.

01-08-2005, 11:09 PM	#2
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	that is a good question. i must say that i am new to this forum thing and in some respect LOTR in general. i have read the books once but i know, well i can remember a lot more than a lot of others. i have tried reading The Silmarilion, but got tied up with books for school, so i wasnt able to finish. so i might not know as much as others but i am a very big fan and in time i think i will get up there along with the others. well to give my opinion on the question. if sauron had forgotten about the elven rings and nothing happened to them? well as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. i think it all depends on how much the elves would have gotten involved with the war and how many would have stayed, but thats talking about years and years of elves crossing over. ekves have been crossing over for many more years then just the time of the ring hadnt they? so in this case i think the elves would have continued to cross over depleting the numbers in middle earth. so in time i think the time of the elves would have ended, now it might not have been right then but as the new age begins and the race of men begins to rebuild the elves would slip quielty into the grey havens. so i think that even if sauron would have forgotten about the elven rings that the time of the elves would have still ended and they would pass fomr middle earth. but like i said i havent read any other book than just the 3 and the hobbit so you might know something i dont and if so please enlighten me on it. this is just what i gather from the trilogy. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-09-2005, 01:39 PM	#6
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	Even though Sauron never touched the Three, and even if you could hold him COMPLETELY innocent of their making (which you can't, since he seems to have instigated the whole Ring-making process in Eregion), the Rings, up to and including the Three, are of their very nature, by what they are designed to do, wrong. The Three Rings, like all the Rings, were created, as far as the Elves were concerned, with the intention of "preserving" middle-earth. In other words, they were trying to hold back the tide of time, and keep things as it was. As it was at that point was with the Elves as the dominant species and the major overlords. The Elves were trying to stop their Fading, and the impending Dominion of Men, which they knew must eventually come. The time would have come eventually for the Dominion of Men. The Music of the Ainur directed that it must come eventually, and it would seem likely as well that the Elves would eventually realize what a selfish and sinful thing they were trying to do in holding back time. As well as impossible. You can hold back time for a while, but I don't think that even the Rings would have kept the Elves in middle-earth forever. All that the Rings were doing was making it worse, because they were able to remain in middle-earth in a nearer-perfect state for much longer, hence (being Elves) they were able to become more attached to their lands, and thus when the time came to depart, much more torn about having to leave. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

01-09-2005, 09:14 AM	#7
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	[QUOTE=Lolidir] as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. QUOTE] after everything happened in the third age with the giant battles and everything the men were begining to emerge as the dominant race. and the elves would continue to cross over, for that is something they had been doing since before the third age isnt it? it was just a matter of time before they were all gone. the other question is, What happend to the wood elves of Mirkwood? it doesnt ever say much about them. Gandalf had the other elven ring didnt he? so they were not bound to the rings fate. in fact they kept to themselves mostly. so i think that the elves of Elrond and Galadriel would have allg gone to the Grey Havens, but i think that the wood elves would have stuck around for at least a little while longer mainly because they keep to themsleves. i hope i bring up a good point, as i have said i am new to this whole thing. doesnt hurt to try i guess. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to" Last edited by Lolidir; 01-09-2005 at 09:20 AM.

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01-09-2005, 02:55 AM	#3
Xajorkith Guest Posts: n/a	Making the rings was beyond the skill of the elves alone: they were made under Sauron's personal direction, presumably so he could weave his influence into thier very fabric. In many ways, they were an extension os Sauron's power. As Galadriel said, if the one ring was destroyed, the power of the elven rings would also be lost.