Have you no pride?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What did you glean about the attribute of pride in the books? It is often used in a negative light. For example, Boromir spoke rashly at the Council of Elrond because he was so proud of himself, his family and his country. On the battlefield, warriors will act recklessly out of pride. I think it was Feanor who refused to back down from confrontation (with Fingolfin?) because his pride spurred him on. The word 'pride' is sometimes used in partnership with a word such as 'wrath' which further emphasises the negativity of its use.

What is Tolkien saying here? Is pride a bad thing? Surely this cannot be the case. Aragorn needed pride in himself to lead the Free Peoples in their struggle. Or am I confusing pride and confidence here? Are the two terms intrinsically linked?

Perhaps it is too much pride that is bad. Saruman was exceedingly mighty on Middle-earth and was just in considering himself so. However, once he became too big for his boots, so to speak, he became a terrible caricature of himself. His pride had overrun his past self.

So are we talking about degrees of pride here? A little is good and healthy, but too much is poisonous. How easy is it to judge what is too much? Surely we can subconsciously become someone who has too much pride. There is a fine line to balance upon.

Perhaps to have no pride is the answer. But maybe then only when no-one else has any either. This is impractical. To assure that this theory would work is to ask every person in the world to let go of their pride simultaneously, and that will not happen. So if a few people decide to let go of their pride, they will be taken advantage of.

What do you think? Does Tolkien see pride as a bad thing? Does he make sense?

[Boromir88]

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. You might take interest in viewing these two threads, pride is briefly talked about...

Seven deadly sins~Squatter of Amon Rhun

7 Deadly sins vs. 7 Heavenly virtues~Boromir88

The way I view it is there is pride and arrogance. I think one can have a certain amount of pride in them, it's a good trait to have. Then there's arrogance when you are just so full of yourselves. Of course many people associate Boromir with this trait. I think he is more "proud" then the other members, and in the end it very well could cost him.

However, a lot of people think just because he brags about Minas Tirith, means he's arrogant, talking as if Minas Tirith is the best. I don't view that as any different then me saying the US is the best place to live, it's just patriotic. Surely people from Germany, France, Czech Republic...etc will disagree, but it's a matter of patriotism.

It is said that patriotism was a reason for WW1. Everyone was so proud in their nation as being the best, being better then everyone else, they got into this arms race competition. So, I can see how Tolkien would look down on pride, since it is said to be one of the causes of WW1. For the time he was living in, I think it was common for people to look down on pride.

I hope that made sense .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you for linking to those threads, Boro. I had seen them before but 'twas useful to see them again.

Are you supposing that pride, then, is a good attribute, but that it is unfortunately joined at the hip with arrogance? If we cannot have one without the other then surely the one is just as bad as the other.

I must confess that I know nothing at all about Tolkien's religion. However, it appears to me as if he places an almost contradictory quality onto the notion of pride, perhaps that it is both good and bad. Is there a solution to this problem? Is it a problem?

[Sapphire_Flame]

There are three different kinds of pride, as I see it. Which one is possessed or displayed by an individual can give great insight to the person's character.

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

Confidence-Pride is what is frequently associated with Aragorn. This kind of pride is more of a personal support; if you have confidence in your own abilities it could be interpreted as pride. But, unless you are absolutely unwilling to compromise your position or plans, this is a more positive sort of pride.

Pleased-Pride is pride in an accomplishment. Consider the variation on "I'm proud of him/her/you" that is used frequently in religious fora:

"...in whom I am well pleased..."

For examples of the above, I would give both Saruman and Feanor for Arrogance-Pride, for obvious reasons. In their refusal to compromise their own (flawed) ideals, they caused the pain and death of thousands, all for the protection of their own egos. When pride is taken to this extent, in whatever form, it must be seen as a negative trait.

I think that both Aragorn and Boromir fall under Confidence-Pride. Boromir is often seen as an arrogant individual, which I don't believe he is. He is proud, assuredly, but not to the point of being unbending. He does follow Aragorn, and ultimately recognizes Aragorn's right to the throne of Gondor. Had he been as arrogant as people claim he is, he would have refused to follow Aragorn at all; he would have set himself up as the leader of the Fellowship after Gandalf's fall, and the Quest would have gone painfully awry.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you think that the term 'pride' is used in different contexts. Fair enough, is then the original question (did I have an original question, or was it just a bundle of gibberish?) reducible to confusions in our language-game? (I'm going to read some Wittgenstein!)

This seems odd. It renders a word that is apparently quite important to Tolkien into a vague expression. I'm not sure I could accept this. Is pride not a single, definable thing?





*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

[Lalwendë]

To have some pride is important, to have pride in yourself enables you to assert yourself in difficult situations, it enables you to achieve goals, and to maintain your own sense of self. And when we say our pride has been hurt, then we mean our ego or sense of self has been hurt. But not all pride is necessarily good, and pride can be a very fragile thing.

Aragorn has pride - it always interests me how close his name is to the word arrogant - yet this is counterbalanced with humility. He is proud enough to realise his role and take control of situations yet not so proud that he cannot become friends with humble hobbits.

I'll use Denethor as an example of 'pride gone bad'. Where pride goes wrong is often in the case of stubbornness - where someone insists their way is the right way, as with Denethor. It can also go wrong when it leads us to taking risks, again with Denethor when he uses the Palantir. It can also lead us to be too proud of our achievements; this can be seen in Denethor's excess of pride in breeding a son like Boromir, which ultimately has bad effects for his son.

To have no pride at all would be difficult, as our sense of self would want to assert itself, but it is possible. But to be able to drop our pride is essential - as seen in the tragic consequences of Eol and Turgon's confrontation, if we can't back down or compromise, we've had it.

*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

Ever considered a career in the civil service? Making up words is a highly sought after skill. You'd go down a storm in a strategic role...