Tolkien-Orwell: Appealing to the Human Nature. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 12-01-2004, 03:18 PM

The people of the reformation believed that we, as humans are born with the capability to do evil. Not that we are evil, but we have the capability to become evil. It is society, laws, government, that keeps us in line, and keeps us from becoming that "evil."

A few years later there's a drastic change, we have romanticism. Where the people believed we are born good, but it is society, government, laws, that turn us evil.

One author that comes to mind is famous satiric-dystopian writer George Orwell. In his bookt 1984 (written in 1949) creates a world of total government control, where everything could very well be a lie, and the government controls your everyday lifestyle. In order to overthrow this government one must commit horrible acts of murder, rape, adultry...etc, so one most commit horrible acts but for the good reason of overthrowing a powerful government that has brainwashed almost it's entire population.

Also, it is believed that we have animal instincts. We obey orders, we aren't good decision makers we always look to the one above us for an answer, we do what we are told. A study of this was taken by a psychologist (who I can't remember at this minute, and it was actually made into a movie), where they hooked up a man to this electric machine. The psychologist asked him questions, if the guy got one wrong they would send a minor shock through his body. However, each time he got one wrong they would turn up the voltage. It got to the point where the man was screaming, saying he was done with the test, done with the experiment, but the psychologist said no, we have to continue, those are the orders. The point is we as humans are trained to listen to the guys above us, we aren't good at making decisions, obey the people above you, and again we as humans aren't good decision makers. Even some who can decide things for themselves may not necessarily be the "right" decision.

Now, done with my senseless ramblings, does Tolkien appeal to this kind of nature in his writings? I think an interesting debate for this would be the Shire Government system. Where there are virtually no laws, the shiriffs aren't really police folk, a relatively peaceful place, everyone is happy. Or is it, is the Shire a form of dystopia? Life looks good on the top, but really underneath it's rotten. Or maybe the Shire is really a good place through and through. Also, does Tolkien appeal to our animal nature of decision making? That we humans (Aragorn, Boromir, Theoden...etc) aren't good at making our own decisions, we must look to the guys above us (counsel), and then they look above them. They aren't sure of their decisions and they doubt their decisions.

the phantom · 12-01-2004, 06:32 PM

The experiment you are referring to wasn't exactly like that.

First, you had the professor doing the experiment. Then you had person A hooked up to the voltage (the guy who has to answer the questions), but he is also in on the experiment and, in fact, is not really being shocked- he's just pretending he's getting shocked.

The experiment was focused on person B, a student who had volunteered to take part in an experiment who was asked to run the shock machine (which actually didn't work).

The professor would ask person A questions and if he got one wrong he would tell person B to press the button to shock person A. Person A would pretend to be shocked. Each time he missed a question the professor would tell person B to increase the voltage and shock person A.

Person A would pretend that the shocks were getting more severe and eventually would ask the professor not to increase them any more, but he would ignore the request and order person B to continue increasing the voltage. Then person A would complain of a heart condition or something like that and ask to be let go but the professor would refuse and continue asking person B to increase the voltage.

Eventually person A would be screaming and writhing around (all an act, of course) but the professor would continue asking person B to up the voltage. The experiment was testing how long person B would follow orders before refusing.

The experiment found that a lot of people (I think it was most of them, actually) stayed with the experiment until the voltage was maxed. Several of them protested but did it anyway and all of them looked very troubled and concerned about person A, but kept working the shocker and following orders.

Boromir88 · 12-01-2004, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the further explanation of the experiment Phantom. Now, would you say Tolkien includes this in his writings? That he does write on how it is our nature to obey orders, and not be able to make our own decisions, we have to follow the rules? Or, does he write something similar to that of Orwell, Reformation believes, Romantic believers? Or simply nothing at all?

Nuranar · 12-02-2004, 11:04 PM

Quote:

The people of the reformation believed that we, as humans are born with the capability to do evil. Not that we are evil, but we have the capability to become evil. It is society, laws, government, that keeps us in line, and keeps us from becoming that "evil."

I have a somewhat different impression of the reformation (assuming you're referring to the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s). Can you tell me in more detail what you mean, and where you learned about it? I'm always interested in more information about it.

phantom, thanks for writing about that experiment. I took a Principles of Social Research course a couple years ago, about constructing surveys and sociological experiments. My prof talked about it in particular, and I thought that's what Boromir was alluding to. If I recall correctly, the purpose of it was to see how far people would go when they were under orders. One of the things my prof said was that it explains some of the horrible things that happened at the concentration camps. Not all Germans were Nazis, much less rabid race-supremacists or sadists. But the experiment, although extremely unethical, showed how ordinary, reasonably decent people will inflict pain on others when they themselves are being ordered around. Keep in mind that whereas nothing was keeping the people in the experiment from simply walking out, German concentration camp guards would have faced very serious consequences themselves if they refused to follow orders.

Boromir88 · 12-19-2004, 09:20 AM

Forgive me Nuranar, for taking so long, I just got busy and then forgot I started this thread. Here is a good site on the reformation/renaissance thinkers.

Neithan · 12-19-2004, 01:05 PM

Tolkien clearly thought that Men had the capacity for both good and evil, and I think that he was closer to the second view, that too much government corrupts people rather than helps them. For example, Morgoth and Sauron had complete dominion over their subjects and so corrupted them. He also evidently believed that power corrupts people (as in Morgoth and the Numenoreans). I think that the hobbits were products of strict social rules rather than actual laws, and yes this made them good people but also a little foolish, however it was the hobbits who didn't listen to these rules who were the heroes (Bilbo and Frodo).

12-01-2004, 03:18 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Tolkien-Orwell: Appealing to the Human Nature. The people of the reformation believed that we, as humans are born with the capability to do evil. Not that we are evil, but we have the capability to become evil. It is society, laws, government, that keeps us in line, and keeps us from becoming that "evil." A few years later there's a drastic change, we have romanticism. Where the people believed we are born good, but it is society, government, laws, that turn us evil. One author that comes to mind is famous satiric-dystopian writer George Orwell. In his bookt 1984 (written in 1949) creates a world of total government control, where everything could very well be a lie, and the government controls your everyday lifestyle. In order to overthrow this government one must commit horrible acts of murder, rape, adultry...etc, so one most commit horrible acts but for the good reason of overthrowing a powerful government that has brainwashed almost it's entire population. Also, it is believed that we have animal instincts. We obey orders, we aren't good decision makers we always look to the one above us for an answer, we do what we are told. A study of this was taken by a psychologist (who I can't remember at this minute, and it was actually made into a movie), where they hooked up a man to this electric machine. The psychologist asked him questions, if the guy got one wrong they would send a minor shock through his body. However, each time he got one wrong they would turn up the voltage. It got to the point where the man was screaming, saying he was done with the test, done with the experiment, but the psychologist said no, we have to continue, those are the orders. The point is we as humans are trained to listen to the guys above us, we aren't good at making decisions, obey the people above you, and again we as humans aren't good decision makers. Even some who can decide things for themselves may not necessarily be the "right" decision. Now, done with my senseless ramblings, does Tolkien appeal to this kind of nature in his writings? I think an interesting debate for this would be the Shire Government system. Where there are virtually no laws, the shiriffs aren't really police folk, a relatively peaceful place, everyone is happy. Or is it, is the Shire a form of dystopia? Life looks good on the top, but really underneath it's rotten. Or maybe the Shire is really a good place through and through. Also, does Tolkien appeal to our animal nature of decision making? That we humans (Aragorn, Boromir, Theoden...etc) aren't good at making our own decisions, we must look to the guys above us (counsel), and then they look above them. They aren't sure of their decisions and they doubt their decisions. __________________ Fenris Penguin

12-01-2004, 06:32 PM	#2
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	experiment The experiment you are referring to wasn't exactly like that. First, you had the professor doing the experiment. Then you had person A hooked up to the voltage (the guy who has to answer the questions), but he is also in on the experiment and, in fact, is not really being shocked- he's just pretending he's getting shocked. The experiment was focused on person B, a student who had volunteered to take part in an experiment who was asked to run the shock machine (which actually didn't work). The professor would ask person A questions and if he got one wrong he would tell person B to press the button to shock person A. Person A would pretend to be shocked. Each time he missed a question the professor would tell person B to increase the voltage and shock person A. Person A would pretend that the shocks were getting more severe and eventually would ask the professor not to increase them any more, but he would ignore the request and order person B to continue increasing the voltage. Then person A would complain of a heart condition or something like that and ask to be let go but the professor would refuse and continue asking person B to increase the voltage. Eventually person A would be screaming and writhing around (all an act, of course) but the professor would continue asking person B to up the voltage. The experiment was testing how long person B would follow orders before refusing. The experiment found that a lot of people (I think it was most of them, actually) stayed with the experiment until the voltage was maxed. Several of them protested but did it anyway and all of them looked very troubled and concerned about person A, but kept working the shocker and following orders. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-01-2004, 07:37 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Thanks for the further explanation of the experiment Phantom. Now, would you say Tolkien includes this in his writings? That he does write on how it is our nature to obey orders, and not be able to make our own decisions, we have to follow the rules? Or, does he write something similar to that of Orwell, Reformation believes, Romantic believers? Or simply nothing at all? __________________ Fenris Penguin

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12-19-2004, 09:20 AM	#5
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Forgive me Nuranar, for taking so long, I just got busy and then forgot I started this thread. Here is a good site on the reformation/renaissance thinkers.

12-19-2004, 01:05 PM	#6
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	Tolkien clearly thought that Men had the capacity for both good and evil, and I think that he was closer to the second view, that too much government corrupts people rather than helps them. For example, Morgoth and Sauron had complete dominion over their subjects and so corrupted them. He also evidently believed that power corrupts people (as in Morgoth and the Numenoreans). I think that the hobbits were products of strict social rules rather than actual laws, and yes this made them good people but also a little foolish, however it was the hobbits who didn't listen to these rules who were the heroes (Bilbo and Frodo).