Tolkien spiritualty... A hint of Buddhism?

[THE Ka]

As we all know, weither it came to Arda's languages or mythological structures, Tolkien strived to make a connection with that of Finnish mythology anf language.

This is somewhat true with his basic layout of arda's spirituality, the consept of Fëa and hröa (Spirit and matter(body) ). But, as i was looking at these consepts again, i found something that gave me the notion that the idea of basic buddhist principles were relative with the Fëa. For example, elvish Fea, is different from mannish Fea because, elves cannot die of old age or disease but, they can die if they are "killed" (Battle, shot, stabed, ect...) or of grief. When this happens, their soul (fea) leaves their hroa (Body) then the soul is reincarnated into a new-born body that is identical to the previous hröa. This is proably the most noticed element of Buddhism and older Teutonic (European) spirituality. Also is the consept of the "wait" in the Halls of mandos. If a fea performs many acts of evil, they are refused reincarnation. Also, men were quiet luckly because they could skip all of this and leave arda completely after death. in a way, this is a connection with the ideal of Nirvana, or Nibbana The mind experiences complete freedom, liberation and non-attachment. It lets go of any desire or craving. In this way, men get the easy way out.

As for elves, many in the lord of the rings discussed the idea of leaving "Arda" forever, instead of returning. This is an almost direct link with buddhism. In the story of Buddha, it explains how Buddha (originally prince Siddhãrtha Gautama) Sought a way to 'break free' from this cycle or reincarnation. An example of this in Arda might be the actions of Lúthien, who like buddha was left with the choice between two different paths.


What do you think of this connection?

If you would like to learn more about Buddha's life click on this link to use as a reference...
http://www.ancientindia.co.uk/buddha/story/sto_set.html

[burrahobbit]

I'm pretty sure Tolkien wasn't a Buddhist.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I'm pretty sure Tolkien wasn't a Buddhist.

The point of my thread is not to be so narrow-minded and say, "Tolkien is a buddhist!" but, to make connections and comparisions... I am not refering to idea that Tolkien wanted to make a direct link to "Buddhist" spirituality for his books, but that there are comparisions to the ideals and events of his works to the ideals of Buddhism...


Respectfully,

THE Ka

[Son of Númenor]

I think burra's point is that any connection Tolkien's ideas had to Buddhist philosophy is coincidental, and therefore irrelevant.

[burrahobbit]

Ok. In Buddhism you aren't reincarnated in an identical infant body, sometimes you are a butterfly. In Buddhism Men reincarnate, in Middle-earth Men do not reincarnate. Etc etc completely different.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Ok. In Buddhism you aren't reincarnated in an identical infant body, sometimes you are a butterfly. In Buddhism Men reincarnate, in Middle-earth Men do not reincarnate. Etc etc completely different.

I know, but the fact that there is the belief of reincarnation is similar to the fate of elves, i found a connection. I wasn't trying to say that men reincarnate (Arda), only that there is a connection betwix that ideal and the fate of elves. I used Buddhism because, it is more wildly known among readers compared to an example of New Age spirituality. Also, not all types of Buddhism believe in trans-reincarnation...

~Ka~

[Child of the 7th Age]

Burra, Son of Numenor,

I think we have to be careful in this context in judging what is and is not relevent. On the one hand, I think we can all concur that Tolkien was not Buddhist. To what extent the author was or was not familiar with Buddhist ideas and legends, I unfortunately do not know.

However, I remember that, for many days, dozens of posters engaged in debate on the canonicity thread concerning the degree to which the reader can bring his own ideas and backgrounds to the text versus the need to ferret out the intentions of the author. I am an historian and a curmudgeon and, because of that, I lean more to the latter camp. But it does seem to me there are points to be made in favor of the former approach.

All these folk with academic backgrounds in English actually "drove" me to search out the viewpoints of critics like Michel Foucault and Roland Barthes, especially the latter who advocates the "death of the author". In this situation, the reader has wide latitude in how he or she approaches the text without regard to a particular author's background or ideas. While I don't believe anyone here would advocate the "death" of Tolkien in this extreme sense, I do think there is something to be said about examining the text through our own experiences and viewpoints. The search for Buddhist or Jewish or explicitly environmental motifs would certainly fall under such a rubric.

Let me say that there are other scholars who have at least read LotR while searching for similar ideas. In the Lord of the Rings and Philosophy there is one chapter entitled "Talking Trees and Walking Mountains: Budhist and Taoist Themes in the Lord of the Rings" by Jennifer McMahon and B. Steve Csaki. I have not read it yet but it does seem to be a fairly serious philosophical treatment.

While I can contribute little that is substantive to this particular topic, I think we should be careful before we dismiss the idea overall. To talk in an abstract sense about the "freedom of the reader" in the canonicity thread is not enough. If that concept of freedom has real merit, we have to be willing to consider the possibility that some readers may find elements of Buddhism or another philosophy when they read LotR. As long as the viewpoint brought forward is not explicitly rejected by the text in question, I have no trouble living with that.

Anyone else have any opinions on this, or see elements of eastern thought as they read through LotR?

[Baran]

I consider myself a follower of Lord Buddhas teaching, and I've read much of Tolkiens work. I've never drawn any parallels beetween Buddhism and Tolkiens books, rather I've found Tolkien to oppose with much of Lord Buddhas teaching. More of that later.

First I want to point out that the whole idea of a persons soul passing on to another body when he dies is a harsh simplification and common misunderstanding of Lord Buddhas teaching. In Buddhis the consept of an eternal, everlasting soul does not exist. Everything is momentary and impermanent. The human mind (soul) is purely a product of the body and the perception of the sense organs. There no mind without body, like there is no fire without air or firewood. This is quite complicated matters wich I am not even close to comprehend, and trying to interpret what little i know is a task far beyond my school-taught English. To get to the point, the kind of re-incarnation the elves are going trough clearly is influated by the Christian (or any other major religion) view of soul. The soul (fear) of the dead elf passes on to another "host"body (hroar). Still it is certainly possible for readers of the book to find a connection beetween their knowledge of Lord Buddhas teaching and LOTR, and there is nothing wrong with that. But I would guess that they would not find the same connection if they had some more knowledge of Buddhism.

When I wrote that I find Tolkien's writing to oppose with much of Lord Buddhas teaching, I meant the escapist-aspect of it. I really like the books, but the concept of making a kind of parallel world disaccords with the Buddhist attempt to live in the present. That goes of course for all kinds of escapism, like tv-shows and entertainment flicks. The thing with LOTR is that it's so well-written that through the books you can almost move to M-E on a permanent basis. I am a big consumer of popular culture, but I believe that loosing yourselfe totaly in a book like LOTR might not be good for you. But that a different discussion, fit for its own thread.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Baran -

Thanks for that interesting explanation. I do not have your knowledge of Buddhism, but I have heard similar reservations expressed by others who do have such a background.

My only question would be your characterization of Tolkien's writings as "escapist":

When I wrote that I find Tolkien's writing to oppose with much of Lord Buddhas teaching, I meant the escapist-aspect of it. I really like the books, but the concept of making a kind of parallel world disaccords with the Buddhist attempt to live in the present. That goes of course for all kinds of escapism, like tv-shows and entertainment flicks. The thing with LOTR is that it's so well-written that through the books you can almost move to M-E on a permanent basis. I am a big consumer of popular culture, but I believe that loosing yourselfe totaly in a book like LOTR might not be good for you. But that a different discussion, fit for its own thread.

My own reading experience has been different. While Tolkien tells a whopping good story in the context of a different "age", I also find myself drawn face to face with some themes that stand at the heart of who we are: the nature of courage, the importance of mercy, the price that sometimes has to be paid for "goodness" to prevail. This list could go on at length. From my perspective then, the book is not escapist.

That is not to say a person couldn't "abuse" the book by focusing so completely on it that other essential things are lost in their life. This could happen not only with Tolkien, but with many good things. Food, family, friends, literature/art, and work all have a place in our life, but even good things may get "out of balance" if we lose a sense of perspective. And, in this limited sense, Tolkien's writings are as capable of abuse as many other things.

One last question.....are you (or is anyone else out there) familiar with the book The Dharma of Dragons and Daemons, Buddhist Themes in Modern Fantasy by David Loy and Linda Goodhew? The book is not widely known but has gotten strong reviews in both general publications and those written within the Buddhist community (at least the reviews I bumped into on the internet). Among the author's examined are Tolkien, Pullman, Ursula K. LeGuin and the anime movie Princess Mononoke.

Loy and Goodhew apparently make the argument that Dharma is found in all good and complex tales, and that it is therefore possible to see certain aspects of Budddhism's teachings reflected in stories such as those of Tolkien and LeGuin. In terms of LotR, they specifically focus on two things: those portions of the book that stress non-violence, including the repeated sparing of Gollum's life, and the idea of Frodo's quest as one of renunciation, virtually a lesson in detachment.

This might be interesting to read, if only because the authors take such a different perspective than the one I personally bring to the text. But nowhere, in any of the reviews, is there any mention of "reincarnation"...

[Garen LiLorian]

Dharma is the struggle that people face from living their lives with too many cravings, more or less, hence anyone wishing to become Buddha must relinquish many of these desires and strive for the Middle Path.

Hmmm. This is, at the least, an odd explanation of Dharma. Perhaps it differs greatly from the Hindu version I'm more familiar with. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable about Buddhism...
But anyway, to my understanding Dharma is right action, action taken to further the cause of one's soul. This runs the gamut from action which gets you enlightened (I suppose Suldaledhel's definition could fit in there) to stuff you've got to do to get rid of karma. There's a lot of this. By this definition, Child's quote;

Loy and Goodhew apparently make the argument that Dharma is found in all good and complex tales, and that it is therefore possible to see certain aspects of Budddhism's teachings reflected in stories such as those of Tolkien and LeGuin.

makes perfect sense. Dharma is neccessarily present in all tales that deal with greater themes. (although poor Túrin seems to work hard to be an exception...)
But I don't really see any significant link between Dharma and Tolkien, or at least any more so than Dharma and Harry Potter, or any other book you'd care to name.

[Baran]

That is not to say a person couldn't "abuse" the book by focusing so completely on it that other essential things are lost in their life. This could happen not only with Tolkien, but with many good things. Food, family, friends, literature/art, and work all have a place in our life, but even good things may get "out of balance" if we lose a sense of perspective. And, in this limited sense, Tolkien's writings are as capable of abuse as many other things.

Of course it is possible to read LotR and enjoy it for what it is, a highly enertaining book. I don't think Tolkien tried to make a statement or to preach anything, he wanted to write a great story. And he did, he created a vaste world you can "dwell" in, and many people define their identity from it. Who of you didn't find it sad to put LotR down after finishing reading it, because you were going to miss all the characters and places in the book? i know I did. And some people might distance themselves from their own world, replacing it with the fictional world of M-E. As Child of the 7th age wrote, this is of course not only a phenomen of Tolkiens work, humans do this all the time, with drugs, movies, star-wars, fassion, stamp-collections...
I personaly can't compare the work of Tolkien with other great books I've read. I don't feel I learned much from reading it, I was just highly entertained. Where really good books invites you to take a look at yourself and the world around you from a different perspective, for me LotR just was a good story.

Earlier i wrote that people define their identity from LotR. Imo this is one of the basic needs people have. Thats where everything from religions to fan-clubs steam from, and that's how you create yourself and the sense of a soul. The goal of Buddhism is to rid yourself of this "illusion" of self and soul. This is my opinion of the books from a personal Buddhist-infuenced perpective, and I won't argue that what I'm saying applies to other people. You might read the books and get to know yourself better, I just didn't.

[Assasin]

Tolkien was a Creationist, not a Buddhist.

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

As we all know, weither it came to Arda's languages or mythological structures, Tolkien strived to make a connection with that of Finnish mythology anf language.

This is somewhat true with his basic layout of arda's spirituality, the consept of Fëa and hröa (Spirit and matter(body) ). But, as i was looking at these consepts again, i found something that gave me the notion that the idea of basic buddhist principles were relative with the Fëa. For example, elvish Fea, is different from mannish Fea because, elves cannot die of old age or disease but, they can die if they are "killed" (Battle, shot, stabed, ect...) or of grief. When this happens, their soul (fea) leaves their hroa (Body) then the soul is reincarnated into a new-born body that is identical to the previous hröa. This is proably the most noticed element of Buddhism and older Teutonic (European) spirituality. Also is the consept of the "wait" in the Halls of mandos. If a fea performs many acts of evil, they are refused reincarnation. Also, men were quiet luckly because they could skip all of this and leave arda completely after death. in a way, this is a connection with the ideal of Nirvana, or Nibbana The mind experiences complete freedom, liberation and non-attachment. It lets go of any desire or craving. In this way, men get the easy way out.

As for elves, many in the lord of the rings discussed the idea of leaving "Arda" forever, instead of returning. This is an almost direct link with buddhism. In the story of Buddha, it explains how Buddha (originally prince Siddhãrtha Gautama) Sought a way to 'break free' from this cycle or reincarnation. An example of this in Arda might be the actions of Lúthien, who like buddha was left with the choice between two different paths.


What do you think of this connection?

If you would like to learn more about Buddha's life click on this link to use as a reference...
http://www.ancientindia.co.uk/buddha/story/sto_set.html

Tolkein drew much of his inspiration from the ancient myths of European tribes and in so much as there is a tenuous connection between them and the Aryan peoples who settled in Northern India we may expect to see some elements of commonality.

As far as I recall there was some belief in reincarnation amongst the Celts, although whether this was as systematic as the Buddhist view I do not know. There are strong elements of Celtic mythology underpinning the elven cosmos and thus, in my opinion, we see a form of reincarnation within this context.

This common Indo-Germanic heritage also contains Wyrd (or fate) / Karma and some *gods (Thor / Indra) which are similar, but do not feature in LOTR (see below).

As to the religious ‘tone’ of Tolkein’s LOTR, I would say it is monotheist, if not explicitly Christian, although any Christian reading it will find much material that accords with Christianity and I think would be able to make a fair claim that the work was essentially underpinned by a Christian, theological framework.

The “One” is hardly mentioned, but there are plenty of hints. The fallen Valar, Morgoth, is certainly Lucifer-like. As I read the book I could not help but equate Strider with Jesus; healing hands and all. *There are no other “Gods” mentioned, which is unusual for a fantasy work. The baddies all follow evil beings but they are never equated with gods, nor do the various tribes and races of Middle Earth have their own gods. Odd, if you think about it, but it makes sense within an implied monotheist context.

The work is a product of its times. C.S.Lewis delivers a similar ‘feel’ in his Chronicles of Narnia, for which he has been recently criticized (unfairly I feel).

Therefore, in my opinion, if there are any parallels between tLOTR and Buddhism it is thanks to the common heritage of the Indo-Germanic tribes. The subject is quite vast and interesting and this commonality manifests throughout the folklore, cosmology and native religions of East and West and will have, thus, seeped into tLOTR by default.

My knowledge of things Tolkein is poor, so I may be mistaken on a few points. Please feel free to correct me here.

[Formendacil]

Insofar as Buddhism is a philosophy that aims to explain life as we live it, and insofar as the Lord of the Rings goes to great lengths to seem "real", it is no wonder that one can make correlations... but I think you read too much into it, Master of Númenor. After all... a tripart harmony is fine, but explain how there are FOUR hobbits in the Fellowship, and whatever PJ may think of Merry and Pippin, there is no redundant, extra hobbit.

[HerenIstarion]

Tolkien's book is not about duality (Good vs Evil), but triality. Three examples are

Eru, Melkor, and the Ainur
Flame Imperishable, Void, and Ea (That Which Is)
Aragorn, Arwen, and Elrond

In the Tolkienian cosmology, each of the individuals in these trialities is both a free agent and divinely attached to the other two

Eru is Supreme One
Melkor is one who desire to be All
the Ainur are Many in the service of the One
The emergent conflict is Ea

Ah, but are those trialities real (as in: things of equal rank/order/nature/status)?

I believe they are not: There is a duality of Melkor vs Ainur. Eru is above. The very duality is measured agains a scale which is Eru - one of the sides in that conflict conforms to Eru's wishes, another does not. But the Scale you measure distance with is not in itself a distance, but thing different from it

Flame imperishable and the Void represent duality, Ea is a manifestation (for lack of better word) of the Flame, but not of the Void, there is no triality here as well

Aragorn, Arwen and Elrond - m-m, I doubt this can be strained to become a triality as well. There are three pairs here - Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn and Elrond and Elrond and Arwen and the whole carpet of relation threads within pairs and between them. But this is an example which seems out of the line with the two above even thus paired.

Now, if Eru has a plan for Ea, there can be no conflict. Yet we all know that the stories in the Silm, LotR and TH are conflict narratives

And this requires special attention - I believe existence of the Plan does not exclude conflict. More so, the very Plan makes the Conflict possible. The story is not about attachments, it is about Love and Freedom among other things. The former is not possible without the latter, but the latter makes also pervertion of Love possible and thus makes Conflict possible.

As for the second post, I don't feel duly qualified to comment . Let me sum it up with maybe