Them Dwarven folk.

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed before...but here it goes. I've always been fasinated by the dwarves, actually maybe even my favorite race. Partially because I like Gimli, and also the story that was told at the Council of Elrond about the Dwarves denying Sauron's offer. So this thread is dedicated to all dwarven discussions.

First I wanted to talk about Dis, I believe the only female dwarf mentioned in Tolkien's works. The dwarves seemed to me like a declining race, and I never read where dwarves married someone from another race. Afterall, that is sort of a scary thought I mean Gimli, marrying, and having children with Galadriel...or Arwen? Anyway, I wanted to know, because I could be missing something but was there another female dwarf mentioned besides Dis? And if anyone for sure knew that dwarves were a declining race?

Another thing I wanted to talk about was Erebor. I've always thought of Erebor as one of the stronger fortresses of Middle-Earth. I mean after the dwarves had went and hid in Erebor, not even Sauron's forces broke through, but of course I don't think Sauron had a 40 000 man assault on Erebor like he did on Minas Tirith. As yes, I'm kicking myself, because I still haven't read the hobbit. But any information on Erebor, or description would be of help to me.

[Encaitare]

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway.

Quite right, it says so in the Appendices - that there were fewer Dwarf women than men and some of those never wanted to marry, or didn't bother to re-marry if they were widowed - which, I think, tells us something about Dwarf culture and the place of women in it. In many of the other cultures, women would have been pressured to marry or re-marry - largely, I suspect, to keep the land in the family. The Appendices also say that Dwarf women are hard to tell from the Men and dress like them when they go out, which isn't often. Of course, this implies that the women also have beards, something with which Terry Pratchett has had a lot of fun, and I'm pretty sure it actually says so in one of the HOME books, I forget which one. The mind boggles! Personally, I have always thought some of Thorin Oakenshield's comrades in THE HOBBIT were female. (g)

I have to agree with you, Boromir88, they are a fascinating folk - brave, tough, likable, with their own flaws like the other races, in their case a love of gold -but then, they're craftsmen and can't help loving beautiful things.

[Boromir88]

Lobelia:

I have to agree with you, Boromir88, they are a fascinating folk - brave, tough, likable, with their own flaws like the other races, in their case a love of gold -but then, they're craftsmen and can't help loving beautiful things.

So true, that's why I believe Gimli wasn't effected by the One Ring as much as say Boromir. Gimli saw the ring as another piece of gold to throw on the pile, now in the dwarvish greed he would have taken the ring, but might not have no use for it, just horde it for more gold.

Encaitare:

I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

Also, to explain about the dwarf marriage is the dwarves were such a secretive race. They had their own secret language, khuzdul, which we hear Gimli shout out. So it would make sense that the dwarf women would just keep to themself and the dwarves to their own customs. With your statement about the dominion of men grew, other races begin to diminish, very good point. You have the elves fading away, either going into the west, or staying in Middle-earth where they begin to fade. As mentioned the dwarves, and then you come to the Ents, who are declining because of the loss of the Entwives. Even Hobbits as Bombadil points out will pass, and others will inhabit the Shire.

I think another thing fascinating about dwarves is their friendships. PJ makes it seem like all elves hate dwarves. In fact most Elves I believe were atleast respectful to eachother. Elrond and the elves of Rivendell showed their kindness to Gloin, and respected the dwarves. It seemed Noldor elves had this connection with the dwarves, coming from Aule, they shared an understanding, which is for the reason for Galadriel's kindness to Gimli. Where the Sindarin or Silvan elves were more hateful towards dwarves, as we get to see with Thranduil, and then with Haldir. I think what PJ missed was the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was something never seen between and Elf and Dwarf. But yet that doesn't mean dwarves were hated by elves, when in fact it seemed like most elves atleast respected the dwarves.

Then we get to see Gloin's kindness towards Frodo during Elrond's supper. As it says Gloin and Frodo talked the whole time. Gloin had deep respect for Bilbo and of course would like Bilbo's heir.

[Lobelia]

[ I think what PJ missed was the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was something never seen between and Elf and Dwarf. But yet that doesn't mean dwarves were hated by elves, when in fact it seemed like most elves atleast respected the dwarves.

Then we get to see Gloin's kindness towards Frodo during Elrond's supper. As it says Gloin and Frodo talked the whole time. Gloin had deep respect for Bilbo and of course would like Bilbo's heir.[/QUOTE]



There is, of course, that feud that started centuries ago when a certain woodland Elven King didn't pay up for a necklace... It gets a brief mention in THE HOBBIT and, of course, in the HOME books. Then there's the mention of "evil woken in the mountains" by what is perceived as Dwarvish greed. In the end, though, I suspect there's a rivalry between craftsmen - both Elves and Dwarves are good with their hands. But you're right that the problem is largely with Sindarin and Silvan Elves.
As for Gloin, if you have a read of THE HOBBIT, it took him a while to respect Bilbo, at whom he sneered at first - only Balin was kind from the start, which is one reason why those of us who have read THE HOBBIT get choked up by that scene in Moria.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

I don't believe they were a declining race, but they didn't increase very rapidly. And dwarf women are probably just completely secretive. I think the Dwarves only declined because of the reagaining of Gondor.

[QUOTE=Boromir88]First I wanted to talk about Dis, I believe the only female dwarf mentioned in Tolkien's works. [QUOTE]

actually 4 of thorins companions were dwarf female just that since the hobbit is described from bilbos point of wiew he thinks they are male.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mahedros the tall

actually 4 of thorins companions were dwarf female just that since the hobbit is described from bilbos point of wiew he thinks they are male.

Quite right. Additionally, there is a message encoded into the text of the Lord of the Rings appendices that clearly states that the Dwarves were actually the Entwives who were transformed by the Great Ring of Transmogrification that was born by Thrain III, also known as Thrain the Androgynous. Gandalf makes brief and cryptic mention of this little-known fact in several places, which I will not reveal and should be obvious to anyone who has paid attention while reading LotR. So all Dwarves are female, and in fact females of a wholly different species than they appear to be. Real Dwarves did exist, but they did not look anything like the Entwife-dwarves of the First, Second, and Third Ages; they were all enslaved by Melkor very early on and forced to work in his dungeons. Bilbo and Frodo never mentioned these facts since they were, as Hobbits, completely ignorant.

[Boromir88]

obloquy

Mahedros, I remember from a conversation SpM and I had where he said this, and if that's where you happened to see where some dwarves in The Hobbit were females, I think you should know that The Saucepan Man was only joking.

[Lobelia]

I remember when I first read Terry Pratchett's novels and he had female dwarves with beards I thought he was just having fun with the fact that all of Tolkien's Dwarves seem to be male, but imagine my surprise to find a passage somewhere in the HOME books where it was actually stated that female Dwarves were bearded! There is a mention, anyway, that you can't tell the males from the females, who rarely travel and when they do, they look like the males, so people assume they are. Given that all the Dwarves we meet seem to have beards,it's the logical conclusion that the women (including Dis?) DO have beards!

I think, anyway, that it was all a matter of Tolkien's Boys' Club attitudes. He just didn't think. The first time he writes about the ancestors of the Dwarves, they're all male. Another (later?) version has them put to sleep with their mates. Durin is the only one who doesn't have a mate, yet somehow he has a line of descendants who are very proud of the fact. Tolkien's fiction is filled with "the fathers of the fathers of ..." whoever. The only time it seems to occur to him that you do need both genders is in the matter of the Ents. Ah, well. I love him anyway.

And for the record, in my moments of whimsy, i have always speculated as to whether any of Thorin's companions might just have been female ...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by B88

... I think you should know that The Saucepan Man was only joking.

Whoops!

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The dwarves seemed to me like a declining race, and I never read where dwarves married someone from another race. Afterall, that is sort of a scary thought I mean Gimli, marrying, and having children with Galadriel...or Arwen?

Elves and Men could produce offspring together, although this was extremely rare.
This was because they were both created by Eru Iluvatar (God) to the same physical pattern. Dwarves were created independently by Aule, one of the Valar. Aule could not copy Eru's creations exactly so Dwarven DNA was significantly different from that of Men and Elves, too diferent for them to mate succesfully.

Hobbits, as a sub-group of Mankind, could, in theory, inter-breed with Men and Elves. A scary thought, though not as scary as Dwarves and Elves.
.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Selmo

Hobbits, as a sub-group of Mankind, could, in theory, inter-breed with Men and Elves.

Actually, it's not so far fetched. The descendants of a liason long ago between a Stoor lad and a Noldorin maid may still be seen in many gardens today ...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually, it's not so far fetched. The descendants of a liason long ago between a Stoor lad and a Noldorin maid may still be seen in many gardens today ...

Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Not to mention the sad looks on some elf girls' faces
when the Fellowship left Rivendell (as observed
on the dvd by Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan).

Oh, and as to above dwarf/elf disagreements. even though
I believe the petty dwarves were exiled from dwarfdom
their initially being hunted by elves (until they found the
petty dwarves weren't animals) could have fueled the
dwarf/elf enmity.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Oh, and as to above dwarf/elf disagreements. even though
I believe the petty dwarves were exiled from dwarfdom
their initially being hunted by elves (until they found the
petty dwarves weren't animals) could have fueled the
dwarf/elf enmity.

I disagree. I don't think the dwarves cared about petty-dwarves so much. Maybe they didn't even notice them being persecuted.

[goldfinger]

I think I remember reading somewhere that when the Dwarves saw what the Elve were doing to the Petty-Dwarves, they took the in and they no longer were exiles. Considering the fact they were Dwarves too, and we all know how proud they were of their race. It makes logical sense.