The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2004, 06:30 AM   #1
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Palantir-Green Strange Curses!

When reading "The passing of the grey company" a thought came to me. How were the men of the mountains cursed? I think it was Isildur who cursed them, (correct me if I’m wrong), If so, how did he do that? He was a mortal, how could he have such powers to curse someone so?
To me he would need to be an ainur of some description to have powers like this. Did he have a wizard friend or something?
Can anyone help?
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:04 AM   #2
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
This conused me as well

ALthough perhaps being as powerful as he was he, at least in the beginning, could bend the ring ever so slightly (because I believe the ring was weakened mainly out of confusion at having a new master) and used it to curse them
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:18 AM   #3
dancing spawn of ungoliant
Mischievous Candle
 
dancing spawn of ungoliant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam.
Posts: 1,234
dancing spawn of ungoliant has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to dancing spawn of ungoliant
There's only this problem that Isildur cursed the men before he went to war against Sauron i.e. he didn't have the Ring then.
" And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk..."
If Isildur had lost the battle the curse wouldn't have worked (or that is how I understand it).
__________________
Fenris Wolf
dancing spawn of ungoliant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:23 AM   #4
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
ALright and Ill now admit I thought it was after my mistake... but that does not explain how he did the curse and I think if a mortal can curse an entire army for an eternity then a red eye can manifest on top of a tower

here's my second less magical answers

He filled the souls of the warriors with such guilt that they did not feel worthy of death and stayed to the land.... but why curse them only if you win.... It would make more sense to curse them if you lose (indeed curse them either way) but if you lost it may have been the lack of warriors you had and their army was the amount need to overpower the dark lord...
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:26 AM   #5
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 515
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
I don't think, Morsul, that it was the power of the Ring that Isildur used to curse the dead army. If it were, then likely only the person who wielded the Ring could lift the curse; as it was, the person who lifted the curse was Aragorn, Heir of Isildur, not Frodo, Ring-bearer.

In many mythologies, curses (and oaths) are very serious business, no matter who the curser is. The 'curse' is tied up with the concept of 'fate vs. free will' that runs as a primary theme throughout Tolkien's works (Morgoth's curse on the House of Hurin, the Oath of Feanor, etc). In a world where two opposing entities - fate and free will - are constantly at work, where prophecies and oaths are being made and curses cast, and where only the Creator can see all ends, a being such as Morgoth has no more 'right' or 'ability' to curse than a mortal man.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:43 AM   #6
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,743
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
There's a very old and very interesting thread that examines this topic: "The curse of Isildur..." Old-timers will remember Saulotus in his surfer-dude persona in this one.

That discussion spawned a more generalized -- but still quite interesting -- discussion of "Magic in Middle-earth".

For those who like perusing scrolls of ancient and nearly-forgotten lore...
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:08 AM   #7
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Boots Annoyance

I hate it when that happens, you think you've started a good topic, and then someone has to ruins it by directing you to another, it's alright Underhill. Any hoo, lets see the old and dusty topic then.
Its pretty cool.

Hooray, I'm now a pile o' bones!
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:11 AM   #8
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,743
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.