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08-05-2002, 06:22 PM | #1 | ||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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uh.. wots a maiar ???/
Through my own observations and the comments of others, it has come to my attention that "Maiar" is not a term many members of the forum understand totally (some not even partially). Because of this lack of understanding, the word is tossed around and assigned to anything that seems to be less than a Valar, but more than a physically incarnate being as a cop out.
From The Silmarillion, Quote:
There are numerous problems with considering beings (like Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant, dragons...) of the Maiar order (or any other 'race' Tolkien described so thoroughly) when it is not explicitly stated so. Why would Tolkien spend so much time in The Silmarillion listing Maiar and then fail to mention that a couple were? If he intended them to be included in that classification, it seems certain that he would say so. For example, Ungoliant served no Valar and came in the world after it was finished. The following from Letter No. 20 that is speaking of the Ainur that Eru placed in this realm (the Valar and Maiar) proves these points. It is also suspicious because she seemingly produced her own children (was there a huge male spider around too?) and she died when she ate herself, meaning she was dependent upon her physical being. Quote:
Maiar that Tolkien told us about: Ilmare, Eonwe, Osse, Uinen, Melian, Olorin (Gandalf/Mithrandir), Sauron (Gorthaur the Cruel), Salmar, Arien, Tilion, Curunir (Curumo/Saruman), Radagast, Alatar, Pallando, and "the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." This was, in part, prompted by another thread on 'Maiar' in which Stephanos asked if there were other Ainur that exist outside of Ea. This has been answered...yes, there are Ainur that exist outside of Ea, although they are not designated as Valar and Maiar (those classifications are strictly used for identifying their purpose/role in Ea). He also used another word in that thread -"ëalar" - that identifies those beings that exist outside of Ea. Ealar is a more general term, and since Ainur already covers the race we know about, then it is possible that there are other races that exist outside of Ea that we do not know about.
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08-05-2002, 09:19 PM | #2 |
The Kinslayer
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So, is my friend Tulkas a former ëalar, that became a Valar when he came fight against Melkor.
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08-05-2002, 09:55 PM | #3 | |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
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Quote:
REAL WORLD EXAMPLE: I am a member of the group called Homo. I am also a member of a subgroup of homo called sapiens. Right now sapiens is the only subgroup of Homo. Back to Tolkien. Valar and Ainur are two of the groups of Ainur that entered Ëa. Valar and Maiar, are more like job descriptions than anything else. Valar and Maiar are still members of the Ainur (and the ëalar), just as CEOs and secretaries are both still members of Homo sapiens.
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08-05-2002, 11:17 PM | #4 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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The Valar and Maiar are included in the term ëalar... ëalar = natural discarnates. The Valar and Maiar are still of the Ainur race, and thus have potency outside of Ea.
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08-06-2002, 10:37 AM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 252
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Quote:
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08-06-2002, 11:16 AM | #6 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
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Yes. At best she is an Umaia, but I doubt even that. "Maia" is a job description. Can I be a Bank Teller if I work at a construction site?
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
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08-06-2002, 02:29 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
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I never thought as it like this. So when we say things along the lines of "Is Tom a Maia" the answer is most definatly No. The question we should be asking is "Is Tom a Ainur?"
Is Tom an Ainur? Oh that also explains why Morgoth was a Valar, then he wasn't. Its almost as though when he stopped being good master and became less of a Guardian he was not accounted amugst the Valar, and he lost his powers (i know he lost his powers from spreading himself too thin with his evil but i was just saying the non-valar thing may be the finishing toutch).
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08-06-2002, 03:02 PM | #8 | ||
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
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Quote:
Quote:
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08-06-2002, 03:54 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 252
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whats an Umaia?
and thanks burrahobbit and galarome for helping me understand it better. |
08-06-2002, 04:09 PM | #10 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
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The Úmaiar are the balrogs and such. Sort of like anti-maiar. If you start out in service to the Valar, you're a Maia. When you quit, you're an Úmaiar. You might be able to call Melian an Úmaiar.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
08-08-2004, 01:59 PM | #11 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Threads like that should be stuck on top, should not they?
up
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08-09-2004, 02:40 PM | #12 |
Deadnight Chanter
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additional reading recommendations
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08-09-2004, 06:16 PM | #13 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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Hmm... that's interesting about Melian possibly being an Umaia. Generally the "subcategories" seem to be defined in terms of good and evil, but in this case it isn't. To put Melian and Ungoliant in the same category would otherwise seem totally impossible.
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12-21-2004, 10:13 AM | #14 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
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Personally I don't think that Melian was an Umaia. She went back to Lorien in Valinor after Thingol died after all. Also, I always thought that the term Umaia referred to only those Maiar who turned evil (Sauron, Balrogs), but that may just be because it reminds me of the Quenya word Umea "evil", so that might not have any truth to it.
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12-21-2004, 08:55 PM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: abaft the beam
Posts: 303
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just being persnickety...
I'd also like to point out (though on this thread most are using the correct terms) that "maiar" is plural. I have noticed in other threads (and the tongue-in-cheek title of this one) people using it as singular. And being an easily peeved person, it's really beginning to make my hair stand on end. One Maia, two Maiar. One Vala, two Valar. One Ainu, two Ainur. One Umaia, two Umaiar. One potato, two potato, three potato, four. There--I feel much better now.
(I sheepishly recognize that my inability to place the appropriate accent marks over many of these names, including my own bloody screen name, is probably raising others' hackles as much as this raises mine. )
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