Elven Rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Joy · 09-18-2002, 10:04 PM

I just wanted to ask you guys a question. I remember reading that Nenya, Narya, and Vilya went with there owners when they went into the West, but someone told me otherwise.

Which is correct??

Legolas · 09-18-2002, 10:12 PM

I can't check for sure since I don't have my books, but I believe they did. I don't even remember if it was mentioned.

Whether they did or not isn't really important since they were rendered powerless by the destruction of the One Ring.

Guildo · 09-18-2002, 10:13 PM

Hmm it says right here in the book they went with Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. BUT i guess it depends who you consider their "owners". The Rings deffinately to the west but i dont know if you can consider the three that bore them their rightfull owners. One of them was given to Cirdan the oldest elf in ME but he thought Gandalf would make better use of it than he would.

Legolas · 09-18-2002, 10:21 PM

Cirdan wasn't the first to carry Narya either.

Upon the forging of the rings, they were distributed to two elves, members of Finwe's royal house...Gil-Galad and Galadriel.

Gil-Galad took Narya and Vilya. He eventually gave them to Cirdan and Elrond, respectively. Cirdan gave Gandalf Narya when the wizard first arrived in Middle-earth (approx. 1000 TA).

Galadriel was the sole bearer of Nenya.

HerenIstarion · 09-19-2002, 12:54 AM

former is

Evisse the Blue · 09-19-2002, 02:00 AM

Did Tolkien give any explanation as to why the three rings were rendered useless after the One was destroyed. After all, they were made separately from it, and not by Sauron.
On a symbolic level, it probably expresses the fact that good, 'white' magic has its essential counterpart in black magic and cannot exist without it as it has no purpose.

Childlike Empress · 09-19-2002, 03:05 AM

It has to do with the Elves losing power in Middle Earth; aside from the fact that they were "slaved" to the One Ring, they were, like the Elves themselves, relics of an earlier Age. When the time for which they were created came to an end, they had to leave to make way for the (relative) newcomers, that is, the newcomers to power. The world of Men had no use for old magic rings created counter to a Power which no longer existed. It's a case of "Make Way for the New". They just weren't necessary anymore.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Childlike Empress ]

**lindil** · 09-19-2002, 07:16 AM

childkike Empress, I must respectfully disagree that the loss of Power of the 3 rings had anything to do w/ the fading of the Elves or the coming [ and already advanced] Age of Men [ other than Synchronicity that is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ].

While JRRT does not spell it out [ Elrond and Galadriel both I believe 'speculate' on what will happen to the rings if the One ring is destroyed, but they do not know exactly till it happens. So we do not ever get a precise explanation of how Sauron linked the One to the Three w/ out ever having ever touched the Three.

We can only surmise that the lore and techniques [i.e. magic] used by Celebrimbor and co. were secretly already interwoven w/ the magic of the one ring [ or it's latent idea].

I am not sure of the exact Chronology of the ring making [ if someone has it that would be great, i imagine it is all [or mostly in the "Of the Rings of Power and the 3rd age].

I think it ran thusly:

Sauron comes up w/ plan of rings to 'enslave ' the leaders of Elves, Dwarves and Men.
Shops around for Elves to make friends and begin injecting his poison to Elvish culture. [ and market his hidden agenda]. Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond and Cirdan all demure.

Celebrimbor, descendant of Feanor that he is [ the rings are an invers plot of the Silmarills in many ways w/ the main characters descendants still involved - as Sam says inwhy mr. frodo we are still in the same tale arn't we why that light in your star glass came form the Silmarills... <para>] .

Celebrimbor then makes the Three w/ knowledge [ and apparently a controlling virus] from sauron [and noldorin lore also i imagine].

Sauron then [makes?] or at least completes the one ring back in mordor, as he utters the spell [the interrelationship of the rings is proven by the fact that -] Celebrimbor becomes aware of Him [ not in Suron's game plan apparently] .

So I put forth the Sauron ring 'virus' theory.

In any case I see no evidence for a talisman's potency to fade because Aragorn becomes king [and inheritor and dynasty founder] of Elven and Numenorean culture and Sauron 'dies'.

Orome · 09-21-2002, 09:24 PM

when i read the books i always got the feeling that Celebrimbor had been experimenting with rings of power, and that was when Sauron came, teaching the elves, but also learning from them as well.
just my thoughts

Tirned Tinnu · 09-21-2002, 10:12 PM

Found it for you, Lindil, in the Appendixes of Days.

Quote:

Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens.
The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
Sauron overruns Eriador.
Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.
From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor.

Dang, it didn't copy the dates! Pretty much all this started around 1500. (If you're interested in dates.) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

09-22-2002, 10:55 AM

Well, the rings did go with the Bearers into the west, because it states in the book that "Gandalf was wearing Narya, freely on his hand" so therefore they left into the west with them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Frodo Baggins · 09-25-2002, 08:46 AM

The Silmarils.......

One Silmaril is borne by Earendil in the sky. Maedhros got hold of one and it burned his remaining hand so that he cast himself into a firey chasm. Maglor got hold of the third and he was so burned that he flung it into the sea. Thus, the three resting places af ther Silamrils are air, fire, and water. The three Elven Rings are air (Vilya), fire(Narya), and water(Nenya). Speaking of descendants, Elrond has Vilya which synbolizes the Silamril borne in the sky by his father Earendil. (cool)
Gil-Galad had Narya and Vilya? Lucky fool. (jk) When did he give Cirdan Narya? He did not surrender Vilya to Elrond until he was dying after being burned by Sauron in the Last Alliance.
Yes, the rings went with their bearers. In fact, that was probably the first time in a long time they wore them openly.

Have you noticed that the rhyme says "Three rings for the Elven-kings..." but one is an Elven-queen? Oh well.

09-18-2002, 10:04 PM	#1
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Elven Rings I just wanted to ask you guys a question. I remember reading that Nenya, Narya, and Vilya went with there owners when they went into the West, but someone told me otherwise. Which is correct?? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

09-18-2002, 10:12 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I can't check for sure since I don't have my books, but I believe they did. I don't even remember if it was mentioned. Whether they did or not isn't really important since they were rendered powerless by the destruction of the One Ring. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

09-18-2002, 10:13 PM	#3
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Hmm it says right here in the book they went with Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. BUT i guess it depends who you consider their "owners". The Rings deffinately to the west but i dont know if you can consider the three that bore them their rightfull owners. One of them was given to Cirdan the oldest elf in ME but he thought Gandalf would make better use of it than he would. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-18-2002, 10:21 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Cirdan wasn't the first to carry Narya either. Upon the forging of the rings, they were distributed to two elves, members of Finwe's royal house...Gil-Galad and Galadriel. Gil-Galad took Narya and Vilya. He eventually gave them to Cirdan and Elrond, respectively. Cirdan gave Gandalf Narya when the wizard first arrived in Middle-earth (approx. 1000 TA). Galadriel was the sole bearer of Nenya. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

09-19-2002, 12:54 AM	#5
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	former is __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-19-2002, 02:00 AM	#6
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Did Tolkien give any explanation as to why the three rings were rendered useless after the One was destroyed. After all, they were made separately from it, and not by Sauron. On a symbolic level, it probably expresses the fact that good, 'white' magic has its essential counterpart in black magic and cannot exist without it as it has no purpose. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

09-19-2002, 03:05 AM	#7
Childlike Empress Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Fantasia Posts: 109	It has to do with the Elves losing power in Middle Earth; aside from the fact that they were "slaved" to the One Ring, they were, like the Elves themselves, relics of an earlier Age. When the time for which they were created came to an end, they had to leave to make way for the (relative) newcomers, that is, the newcomers to power. The world of Men had no use for old magic rings created counter to a Power which no longer existed. It's a case of "Make Way for the New". They just weren't necessary anymore. [ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Childlike Empress ] __________________ Fantasia is with you in your heart. It is the story of which we are a part. Take my hand, come with me, join in my Neverending Story.

09-19-2002, 07:16 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	childkike Empress, I must respectfully disagree that the loss of Power of the 3 rings had anything to do w/ the fading of the Elves or the coming [ and already advanced] Age of Men [ other than Synchronicity that is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]. While JRRT does not spell it out [ Elrond and Galadriel both I believe 'speculate' on what will happen to the rings if the One ring is destroyed, but they do not know exactly till it happens. So we do not ever get a precise explanation of how Sauron linked the One to the Three w/ out ever having ever touched the Three. We can only surmise that the lore and techniques [i.e. magic] used by Celebrimbor and co. were secretly already interwoven w/ the magic of the one ring [ or it's latent idea]. I am not sure of the exact Chronology of the ring making [ if someone has it that would be great, i imagine it is all [or mostly in the "Of the Rings of Power and the 3rd age]. I think it ran thusly: Sauron comes up w/ plan of rings to 'enslave ' the leaders of Elves, Dwarves and Men. Shops around for Elves to make friends and begin injecting his poison to Elvish culture. [ and market his hidden agenda]. Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond and Cirdan all demure. Celebrimbor, descendant of Feanor that he is [ the rings are an invers plot of the Silmarills in many ways w/ the main characters descendants still involved - as Sam says inwhy mr. frodo we are still in the same tale arn't we why that light in your star glass came form the Silmarills... <para>] . Celebrimbor then makes the Three w/ knowledge [ and apparently a controlling virus] from sauron [and noldorin lore also i imagine]. Sauron then [makes?] or at least completes the one ring back in mordor, as he utters the spell [the interrelationship of the rings is proven by the fact that -] Celebrimbor becomes aware of Him [ not in Suron's game plan apparently] . So I put forth the Sauron ring 'virus' theory. In any case I see no evidence for a talisman's potency to fade because Aragorn becomes king [and inheritor and dynasty founder] of Elven and Numenorean culture and Sauron 'dies'. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-21-2002, 09:24 PM	#9
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	when i read the books i always got the feeling that Celebrimbor had been experimenting with rings of power, and that was when Sauron came, teaching the elves, but also learning from them as well. just my thoughts

09-22-2002, 10:55 AM	#11
mordormaster02 Guest Posts: n/a	Well, the rings did go with the Bearers into the west, because it states in the book that "Gandalf was wearing Narya, freely on his hand" so therefore they left into the west with them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-25-2002, 08:46 AM	#12
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	The Silmarils....... One Silmaril is borne by Earendil in the sky. Maedhros got hold of one and it burned his remaining hand so that he cast himself into a firey chasm. Maglor got hold of the third and he was so burned that he flung it into the sea. Thus, the three resting places af ther Silamrils are air, fire, and water. The three Elven Rings are air (Vilya), fire(Narya), and water(Nenya). Speaking of descendants, Elrond has Vilya which synbolizes the Silamril borne in the sky by his father Earendil. (cool) Gil-Galad had Narya and Vilya? Lucky fool. (jk) When did he give Cirdan Narya? He did not surrender Vilya to Elrond until he was dying after being burned by Sauron in the Last Alliance. Yes, the rings went with their bearers. In fact, that was probably the first time in a long time they wore them openly. Have you noticed that the rhyme says "Three rings for the Elven-kings..." but one is an Elven-queen? Oh well. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

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