Shelob's Sting? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Angadraug · 12-31-2003, 03:55 PM

I was just wondering how Shelob's stinger actually stung Frodo. Since he was wearing mithril shouldn't it have been blocked? I mean in the FOTR the cave troll's spear didn't penetrate so how did her stinger? I can see him getting stung if he hit him in the neck or something but in the movie he's hit right in the chest, which the mithril covers.

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-31-2003, 04:03 PM

ooh- I forgot about the mithril! Maybe the stinger was so thin that it made it between the rings. but I dont think that's likely. Or the stinger might have gone through one of the spaces between where he fastened it up, like in the front where there are the hooks where you close it. If the seams didn't overlap, it might have been able to go between them. Or it could be the movie messing up again. which is very probable. [ 5:06 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Lady Snickerdoodle ]

Lyta_Underhill · 12-31-2003, 04:13 PM

Hi, Angadraug! I've got a bit of a discussion on Mr. Baggins' many scars, including Shelob's Sting going on this thread: <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002585" TARGET=_blank>Branded in the Tower of Cirith Ungol?</A> . There I decided for myself that Shelob's sting must have come from the front and above, so as to get around the mithril vest. It is still under debate though! Cheers! Lyta

Em · 12-31-2003, 04:22 PM

In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril), so you see, it wasn't a matter of, 'how did shelob pierce the mithril' because he wasn't wearing it in either version. The book or the film.

The Only Real Estel · 12-31-2003, 04:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But he was wearing the mithril shirt at the time of Shelob's sting. In answer to your question, Angadraug, just take a look at Shelob & Sam's scirmish. * Shelob missed him 3 times, all three times her 'stinger' was buried very deeply in the ground. * Remembering that, it's not to much of a suprise that it got past his shirt, it's a wonder that Frodo wasn't scewered by it! Also, remember, that he was only stung on the back of the neck in the books, so this an invention of Mr. Jackson's, who's inventions sometimes conquerdict (however you spell it ) eachother.

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-31-2003, 04:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think this really works- explain how he got that way? I thought his clothes and other stuff were taken only after the orcs captured him, and if he went in through shelob's tunnel first, the orcs couldn't have got to him until later. Or am I getting mixed up again..?

Teleri · 12-31-2003, 04:41 PM

Darn... I just posted something like this in the Branded at Cirith Ungol thread. And I thought I was being origional... I think It was probably an editing slip up, though. Even if Shelob's sting did get through the mithril, it was too thick to go through without damaging it, and in the Cirith Ungol scene the mithril shirt looks as flawless as ever.

The Only Real Estel · 12-31-2003, 04:53 PM

Good questions.*How did Shelob's stinger get past his mithril shirt?*If it just slammed through, where's the mark left by it? For some reason I hadn't thought of the fact that there was no rip in his shirt, Teleri, good point.

Birdland · 01-01-2004, 03:30 PM

In the book Tolkien gets around the shirt by having Shelob stab Frodo from behind in the back of the neck. So I'd say that this was a screw-up on P.J.s part. The thing that was bothering me more was the sheer size of that spider's sting! Frodo should have been skewered like a shish-kabob by that thang. I mean, that was one big, stinger!

Finwe · 01-01-2004, 03:34 PM

It seemed like Frodo got stung on the right collarbone, or somewhere close to the right collarbone. When you see Frodo's mithril shirt in Moria, you see that the shirt doesn't completely cover his collarbones. By pure chance, Shelob's stinger might have gotten through there.

Knight of Gondor · 01-02-2004, 09:58 PM

When I saw the movie the first time (and I've only seen it once, but I hope to change that soon!) I couldn't figure out where she stung him. I think the ratings are kept lower if the actual penetration isn't shown, so it looked to me like the stinger went BELOW camera to sting him. I always thought he got stung on the chest/stomach, but the mithril changes that. Perhaps the lower stomach area? If the poison attacks the brain, it could explain why Frodo had enough time to spend about three bajillion minutes standing there and grunting, gasping, and moaning and making faces like "What just happened? You know what? That HURT! I think....I think I need to lie..." (thump). I'm not being overly critical, but it just seemed too similar to the Expression of Pain as displayed by Frodo after the cave troll stabbing -- and way too prolonged.

Lyta_Underhill · 01-02-2004, 11:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm not being overly critical, but it just seemed too similar to the Expression of Pain as displayed by Frodo after the cave troll stabbing -- and way too prolonged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I noticed this one is not "slowed" the way the Moria troll stabbing is, but I just assumed that the poison had paralyzed him from voluntary muscular functions and then slowly to his breathing and facial 'twitching.' The falling down part would come when the poison got into his lower body or the loss of control of the upper part overbalanced him. I thought it was all pretty appropriately done. I'm not sure about the foaming at the mouth though...(still looking out for that elusive "Foaming Frodo action figure!" Cheers, Lyta

Finwe · 01-03-2004, 02:35 PM

Some poisons do make the victim foam at the mouth, so it was a logical symptom. I wasn't complaining about that part because it made the sting much more realistic.

Lathriel · 01-03-2004, 07:07 PM

Well, maybe he was stung in his lower back or in his butt Oh well I don't really mind it, besides if they had shown Frodo getting stung in the neck that would have looked very disgusting and people would think it illogical because they would probably reason that the poison went to his brain and therefore he must have died.

12-31-2003, 03:55 PM	#1
Angadraug Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 44	Shelob's Sting? I was just wondering how Shelob's stinger actually stung Frodo. Since he was wearing mithril shouldn't it have been blocked? I mean in the FOTR the cave troll's spear didn't penetrate so how did her stinger? I can see him getting stung if he hit him in the neck or something but in the movie he's hit right in the chest, which the mithril covers.

12-31-2003, 04:03 PM	#2
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	ooh- I forgot about the mithril! Maybe the stinger was so thin that it made it between the rings. but I dont think that's likely. Or the stinger might have gone through one of the spaces between where he fastened it up, like in the front where there are the hooks where you close it. If the seams didn't overlap, it might have been able to go between them. Or it could be the movie messing up again. which is very probable. <p>[ 5:06 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Lady Snickerdoodle ] __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-31-2003, 04:13 PM	#3
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	Hi, <B>Angadraug</B>!<BR>I've got a bit of a discussion on Mr. Baggins' many scars, including Shelob's Sting going on this thread: <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002585" TARGET=_blank>Branded in the Tower of Cirith Ungol?</A> . There I decided for myself that Shelob's sting must have come from the front and above, so as to get around the mithril vest. It is still under debate though! <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

12-31-2003, 04:22 PM	#4
Em Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The deep, dark recesses of my mind Posts: 19	In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril), so you see, it wasn't a matter of, 'how did shelob pierce the mithril' because he wasn't wearing it in either version. The book or the film. __________________ 'So' a silvery voice spoke 'you are the one' and suddenly the ice-blue eyes from the shadows vanished. (The Fallen Creator, Emily Sarah)

12-31-2003, 04:32 PM	#5
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But he was wearing the mithril shirt at the time of Shelob's sting. <P> In answer to your question, Angadraug, just take a look at Shelob & Sam's scirmish. <P>* Shelob missed him 3 times, all three times her 'stinger' was buried very deeply in the ground. <P>* Remembering that, it's not to much of a suprise that it got past his shirt, it's a wonder that Frodo wasn't scewered by it!<P> Also, remember, that he was only stung on the back of the neck in the books, so this an invention of Mr. Jackson's, who's inventions sometimes conquerdict (however you spell it ) eachother.

12-31-2003, 04:40 PM	#6
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In answer to your confusion Angadraug, he wasn't wearing the mithril coat, in the film version, his upper half was naked (no ithril) in the book he was fully naked(no mithril)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't think this really works- explain how he got that way? I thought his clothes and other stuff were taken only after the orcs captured him, and if he went in through shelob's tunnel first, the orcs couldn't have got to him until later. Or am I getting mixed up again..? __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-31-2003, 04:41 PM	#7
Teleri Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire Posts: 45	Darn... I just posted something like this in the Branded at Cirith Ungol thread. And I thought I was being origional... <BR>I think It was probably an editing slip up, though. Even if Shelob's sting did get through the mithril, it was too thick to go through without damaging it, and in the Cirith Ungol scene the mithril shirt looks as flawless as ever. __________________ "But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."

12-31-2003, 04:53 PM	#8
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	Good questions.<P>How did Shelob's stinger get past his mithril shirt?<P>If it just slammed through, where's the mark left by it? <P> For some reason I hadn't thought of the fact that there was no rip in his shirt, Teleri, good point.

01-01-2004, 03:30 PM	#9
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	In the book Tolkien gets around the shirt by having Shelob stab Frodo from behind in the back of the neck. So I'd say that this was a screw-up on P.J.s part. <P>The thing that was bothering me more was the sheer size of that spider's sting! Frodo should have been skewered like a shish-kabob by that thang. I mean, that was one big, stinger!

01-01-2004, 03:34 PM	#10
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It seemed like Frodo got stung on the right collarbone, or somewhere close to the right collarbone. When you see Frodo's mithril shirt in Moria, you see that the shirt doesn't completely cover his collarbones. By pure chance, Shelob's stinger might have gotten through there. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-02-2004, 09:58 PM	#11
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	When I saw the movie the first time (and I've only seen it once, but I hope to change that soon!) I couldn't figure out where she stung him. I think the ratings are kept lower if the actual penetration isn't shown, so it looked to me like the stinger went BELOW camera to sting him. I always thought he got stung on the chest/stomach, but the mithril changes that. Perhaps the lower stomach area? <P>If the poison attacks the brain, it could explain why Frodo had enough time to spend about three bajillion minutes standing there and grunting, gasping, and moaning and making faces like "What just happened? You know what? That HURT! I think....I think I need to lie..." (thump). I'm not being overly critical, but it just seemed too similar to the Expression of Pain as displayed by Frodo after the cave troll stabbing -- and way too prolonged. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

01-02-2004, 11:21 PM	#12
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm not being overly critical, but it just seemed too similar to the Expression of Pain as displayed by Frodo after the cave troll stabbing -- and way too prolonged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I noticed this one is not "slowed" the way the Moria troll stabbing is, but I just assumed that the poison had paralyzed him from voluntary muscular functions and then slowly to his breathing and facial 'twitching.' The falling down part would come when the poison got into his lower body or the loss of control of the upper part overbalanced him. I thought it was all pretty appropriately done. I'm not sure about the foaming at the mouth though...(still looking out for that elusive "Foaming Frodo action figure!" <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

01-03-2004, 02:35 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Some poisons do make the victim foam at the mouth, so it was a logical symptom. I wasn't complaining about that part because it made the sting much more realistic. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-03-2004, 07:07 PM	#14
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	Well, maybe he was stung in his lower back or in his butt <BR>Oh well I don't really mind it, besides if they had shown Frodo getting stung in the neck that would have looked very disgusting and people would think it illogical because they would probably reason that the poison went to his brain and therefore he must have died. __________________ Back again

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