Branded in the Tower of Cirith Ungol?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I have been looking for this picture online for awhile, and I also noticed this in both of my viewings of ROTK. It appears, from this picture (hosted on my own webspace, BTW, BW! ) that Frodo has been branded with the symbol of the Eye of Mordor. <BR> <BR>I don't recall that being mentioned in the books, but since it appears to be included in the movie, I wonder at its significance. It seems to be one of those added details that may be more fully explored in the EE. Gorbag, of course, was of Minas Morgul, which had a different symbol (crescent moons or something, I cannot remember), while Shagrat's groups was from Lugburz (Barad-Dur). I wonder if Shagrat branded Frodo or if it was Gorbag, and whether this is a manufactured point of contention, since they do fight over everything else on Frodo!<P>When I mentioned the question in the chat room the other eve of whether Frodo looked to be branded, most people seemed to think it was a bruise, but here it really looks like the Eye. Tell me what you think, or if you mod types out there think this is inappropriate as a new topic, I'll move the text to the Frodo thread or perhaps the Minas Morgul thread (is there a Cirith Ungol thread?). <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[BoromirsBeard]

Hmm, when I saw it I thought it was the scar from the cave troll's spear, but now I can't remember if that's where he got stabbed.<P>Don't know if it's an eye; it does look more like a scar to me.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I don't think it looks very much like a brand. I can see a sort of eye there, but I'm not sure if it's intentional or not. It could be a cave troll wound, or just a whip mark or something. But I'm not sure, if it wasn't in the book would there be much point in including it? Or maybe PJ thought that it would be a cool think to do. I'm not sure.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Don't know if it's an eye; it does look more like a scar to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It looked like an eye to me, but it is kind of light. The Morgul blade wound is on his left shoulder and can be seen, and as for the Cave Troll wound, I do not see it, but I would think it would have to be central on him, for if the spear had hit him where the "eye" is, it would have turned him around rather than driven him back as it did. That's why I thought it was not one of those two wounds. I can't imagine why PJ would add such a thing, except to play up a conflict between Shagrat and Gorbag in the Tower perhaps, that is not shown but in brief in the theatrical version. One wonders if it will be elaborated upon in the EE though...<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta<p>[ 12:52 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Gorwingel]

I can see what you are talking about, and I can see where you could get the idea of the eye from. But the mark is rather light, and if he had just been branded recently wouldn't it be more red and blistered? I sure hope that it is not a brand though, because that would just be a terrible thing to put into the story.

[Tar-Alcarin]

I always thought that was were Shelob stabbed him. It is right aruond in that area to begin with.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I always thought that was were Shelob stabbed him. It is right aruond in that area to begin with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ooh! I shall have to look for that when next I watch the movie. If Shelob's sting came out in the shape of an eye, it would truly be an odd coincidence, kind of an earthy parallelism, since Shelob existed separately and independently of Sauron but both symbiotically...interesting thought!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Finwe]

I think it might have been Shelob's sting. I highly doubt that PJ would change the story THAT much. But then again, look what he did to Faramir.

[Olorin_TLA]

I alos thinnk it's Shelob's sting.<P>I just remember seeing that scene and being overjoyed (for Tolkien - oversaddened for Frodo!) at there still existing the wounds from the Morgul Blade, the Ork Spear, and Shelob's Sting...takes it beyond movie, beyond consistency, and into a true (sub? I think not!)reality.

[Tinker]

Added to Olorin's list o'Scars: Look at Frodo's neck.<P> It's not very clear in that li'l picture above. And there were times watching the scene I htought "maybe its just his collarbone", but no. If you look carefully enough, you can see another scar, like a long chain going around his neck..sort of like a certain chain... that recently held a certain Ring...

[Sapphire_Flame]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I always thought that was where Shelob stabbed him. It is right around in that area to begin with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's it.<P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~

[Vardadurwen]

I just always thought it was Frodo's Weathertop scar which would have been a really really terrible movie mistake since it's supposed to be on the other side. <BR> <BR> Didn't Shelob stab Frodo in his back??...I mean, that's what it looks like in the movie, and I don't think her claw went all the way <I>through</I> him.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I don't think it's the spear from the troll, I always had the impression that all he got was a bruise from the troll. I'm inclined to agree with the Shelob theory.

[Kalimac]

I'm inclined to think it's the troll - it's whitish and looks like it's been there for a while, and while the spear didn't pierce the mithril coat, it would have jammed it up against Frodo's chest pretty hard and probably broken skin; that was a truly hideous-looking instrument, after all. <P>The mark is shaped somewhat like an eye, but basically it's just oval, which could come from a number of things. Also, I can't think of a single instance in the movies so far that has shown branding in any context; they probably would have planted that (say, with a Saruman-Orc or something) if it were going to be an issue. Also - WHY brand him? It's not like this is a modern jail system when all prisoners have to be assigned pinstripes and numbers. There's no need for a "Property of Sauron" mark - they're not going to lose him. Or so they think.<P>Addendum: Also, the mark is the wrong place to be from Shelob - if the troll spear couldn't get through the mithril coat, I doubt that Shelob's stinger could. I'm betting that she got Frodo in the neck (it was hard to see, though).<p>[ 9:46 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Didn't Shelob stab Frodo in his back??...I mean, that's what it looks like in the movie, and I don't think her claw went all the way through him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I had always thought it was a sting in the back of the neck, but I have been to see the movie again, and this time it looked like he was stung by a quick sweep from above and front, so I'm more inclined now to go with the Shelob theory, rather than the brand or the troll. The brand thing was simply my astonishment at seeing something on Frodo that looked VERY much like an eye! <B>Kalimac</B> makes a good point; there is no precedent and no reason for it to be there. I could think of no logical reason for it, but it seemed to be there nonetheless! When I watched it again, the mark does look more irregular when viewed closeup and Shelob could conceivably have swooped in from above, thus getting around the area of protection afforded by the mithril vest. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you look carefully enough, you can see another scar, like a long chain going around his neck..sort of like a certain chain... that recently held a certain Ring...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I noticed this too, in other shots; perhaps I should have entitled this thread "The Many Scars of Mr. Frodo Baggins" or some such thing! <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Olorin_TLA]

Yeah, the Ring scars are a great way of showing visually the effect of the Ring! <P>If it was a brand, mind you, it wouldn't be without precedent so much: Orks are curel, they like to brand decapitated heads, Frodo's a prisoner...makes sense that they could brand him - thoguh I suppose what with the orders that he be left intact for Sauron to deal with, I doubt they'd want to see if branding meant he wasn't intact.

[Tar-Alcarin]

Just saw the movie again. I am almost certain it is Shelob. Keep in mind that it might also be larger scar with a smaller on inside where the poisen was injected.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I always thought that was were Shelob stabbed him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think so. It looked much more like she 'stung' him in the gut to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I highly doubt that PJ would change the story THAT much. But then again, look what he did to Faramir.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ugh, you beat me to it. 'But then again, look what he did to Faramir' was exactly what I was going to say when I saw the first line of what you said . Besides, I don't really think that it's THAT much of a change. Orcs seem like the type of nice folk who would brand people for no good reason at all...perhaps so that they could identify escaped prisnors? Anyway, it wasn't in the book that I remember, but it would be an interesting touch by PJ...it's not like it comes into play later anyways. That's assuming that it <B>is</B> indeed in the shape on an eye, which is hard to tell. If we only had a close-up...

I have just seen the film again soon after reading this topic and im almost 100% sure it was shelob. She attacks him from above and front. Look where she is after he falls. She is on the stairs facing him, so she would have stung him where the scar is.

[The Only Real Estel]

clairegal: But did Shelob get him in the shoulder? I thought she got him in the stomach, but I'll have to watch again when I go for the fourth time, whenever that will be.

hmm I never actually noticed that at all I was just so relieved that Frodo wasn't totally naked. um. but what I did wonder about was which one if Shagrat and which one is Gorbag? when they come down to pick up Frodo wrapped in his cacoon dealy, in the book Shagrat is the one who says "this fellow aint dead" which led me to believe that the pointy green one was Shagrat. but then in the tower, the big black orc calls the green one "morgul scum" which made me think he was Gorbag. does anyone have proof?

[Failivrin]

i am not entirely sure what we're discussing; it's the black patch on his left shoulder, yeah?<P>When i saw it i noticed two scars, both flesh coloured (that i thought looked really fake); one was circular somewhere i nthe middle of his chest, which i assumed was Shelob and then one was on his left shoulder which i assumed was from the stab he received from the Witch King on Weathertop.<P>I noticed the marks the ring made around his neck and i thought that was very good; like a burn.<P>If we are talking about the black- ish patch i would be inclined to say it's not a brand. I think if it was it would have been more raw, possibly red so that everyone could see it first time around.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i am not entirely sure what we're discussing; it's the black patch on his left shoulder, yeah?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I began this discussion because of an uncanny resemblance between the scar on Frodo's right upper quadrant to the Eye of Mordor. I believe now it is an interesting visual coincidence, though and is indeed the scar from Shelob's sting, although there seems to be some doubt as to where she actually got him. I was under the impression she swooped down from above and got him from the front, thus circumventing the mithril shirt's protection. That's about as far as I've gotten with it, though!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[The Only Real Estel]

<B>SuperMairaio</B>:<P> I think the green orc is Gorbag, as in the books it describes him as being smaller than Shagrat (if I'm remembering correctly).

[Teleri]

I don't think it was Shelob, because in the movie she seems to sting him in the stomach. <BR>Which doesn't really make sense because Frodo is wearing a mithril shirt. They would have done better to keep the sting on his neck...

[The Only Real Estel]

That could've worked, Teleri, but since PJ enlarged Shelob's stinger (presumably) to make it look more menacing, you can't really have that thing sting him in the back of the neck. Unless you want it poking out of his throat ...

[ArisBoch]

I'm pretty sure it was the cave troll- I remember hearing about the scars in some interview or something. That and the more obvious one from Weathertop. But you're right about the chafing around his neck- I noticed that the second time I saw RotK, and also figured it was from the chain that held the ring, even though I haven't heard anything about that.

[Failivrin]

i think Shelob stung him just above where the mithril shirt stops on his chest. umm, i'd say it was about 20/25cm down from his chin

[Finwe]

The cave troll "stabbed" him on the left side, on his waist. I don't think that scar or mark could have been caused by the cave troll. It looks a lot like a half-healed sting to me, and from what I saw, that seemed to be the general region where Shelob stung him.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The cave troll "stabbed" him on the left side, on his waist. I don't think that scar or mark could have been caused by the cave troll.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had tried yesterday to post here, but my post never showed up! I rewatched FOTR the other day and slowed the portion where Frodo receives the would from the troll. The point is below the camera, but you can see that it doesn't hit him in the shoulder area where that scar is, but lower on him. What puzzled me, though, was the fact that, right after the attack, Frodo had a hole in his shirt right about where the "eye" looking scar is! Hmmm....<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Finwe]

Hmm... are you positive that he had a hole in his shirt after the attack? My first guess would be that it was a stab wound from an Orc blade, but a wound like that would start bleeding, and I don't recollect seeing Frodo visibly bleed in Moria. Another possibility was that he was hit very hard with a blunt instrument, perhaps a club, which severely bruised/scraped him. That would exclude the possibility of blood soaking through the shirt, would most likely tear the shirt, and would result in scarring, especially in someone as fair-skinned as Frodo.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hmm... are you positive that he had a hole in his shirt after the attack?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just now got the chance to re-watch the scene in FOTR, and Frodo does indeed have a darkly outlined hole in his shirt on the right side of his chest (his right) that would roughly coincide with the "eye" scar shown above. The only problem with that is the cave troll obviously hit him lower and more central than that! And I also think he would not bleed from a wound inflicted where the mithril protects him. As I recall from the book, it leaves a nasty bruise. That would be one heck of a nasty bruise, though!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta<P>P.S. I forgot to congratulate you on becoming a Deathless Sun, <B>Finwe</B>! Cheers again! <p>[ 1:01 AM January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Finwe]

Why thank you, m'dear! <P><BR>If Frodo was hit hard enough by a club, say by an Orc during the Moria scuffle, or if he had fallen on an outcropping of rock in Shelob's cave hard enough, the mithril could have been forced deep enough into his skin to actually break a few layers. I've had an injury like that before, and even for my melanin-rich skin, it left a nasty-looking scar for a few months. With Frodo's rather melanin-deprived skin (at least in the movie), it would have scarred even worse.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Well, I saw ROTK for the third time not so long ago, and I can confirm that Shelob stung him in about the same area as the scar. And the scar does look Shelob-induced to me (seeing as I paid special attention to that during the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and then had to remember to watch the scene for its emotional content, not just Frodo's scar). When he gets stung, contrary to what happens in the book, he's looking around to see what made a suspicious noise, and he turns 180 degrees, so that Shelob's stinger is perfectly poised to sting him on the right sort of around or below the collar bone. And sting him in that area she does. Although how it got that low without piercing or being deflected by the mithril vest is beyond me......<P>And the hole in the shirt is quite interesting. Maybe we should all go back and watch the Moria sequence a few times really carefully, even though the possibility of the scar coming from a Moria-wound is probably slim.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Although how it got that low without piercing or being deflected by the mithril vest is beyond me......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I figured it came in from above and curved downwards, as fangs might in their natural curve. That would allow a strike above the mithril that sank in to a point underneath it, at least in my imagination! <BR>As for the Moria sequence, I'm pretty sure the spear doesn't hit him where the hole is, but I do wonder where the hole came from! The shirt seems to have a dark outline around the hole, as if it was singed or something...it could just be dirt!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

You might have inadvertently found something to add to the Movie Mistakes web site, Lyta. The hole in frodo's shirt is not there before the cave troll scene.

[Finwe]

It could be a hole caused by normal wear and tear, or climbing over rocks in the Emyn Muil, with dirt around the edges. It doesn't necessarily have to be gotten in a battle. Remember, Frodo and Sam journeyed for a long time on foot. I have a feeling that their clothes didn't stay in pristine condition all the time.