LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 04 – A Short Cut to Mushrooms

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter begins and ends with brief refuges from the danger of the Black Riders – from the Elven camp to Farmer Maggot’s house. In both cases, there were narrow escapes.

Sam has taken a big step in his growth through the conversation with the Elves. Not only was his task made clear to him, he sees farther than before, both in his opinion on the Elves (‘They seem a bit above my likes and dislikes…’ ) and in his vision of the goal of their journey. The latter is a foresight – very unusual for Sam. (‘I seem to see ahead… I have something to do before the end… I must see it through…’ )

Pippin has an important function as a guide and as an introduction to Farmer Maggot. Other than that, he brings a touch of light-heartedness to the conversations.

Frodo sets his will to the journey ahead (‘…we have got to try and get there; and it won’t be done by sitting and thinking.’ )

And Tolkien does a suspenseful bit of writing with the cloaked rider who seems dangerous and turns out to be a friend.

I look forward to seeing where the discussion of this chapter takes us!

[Kuruharan]

In this chapter, Frodo first verbalizes the impulse that he ultimately acts upon at the end of the book; that is his desire to not take his friends into danger. Of course, at this time he did not know that Merry and Pippin were planning to go with him. Still, he had a mental rejection of that idea.

At this time, Frodo and Sam continued their little understanding that Frodo thought others did not know about. However, at the end of the book, when Frodo has a better understanding of the evil of the Ring, he is more than willing to leave Sam behind as well.

Frodo does not want to bring others into danger because of what he must do.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I for one would be very happy to have neighbours such as Farmer and Mrs. Maggot. Their hospitality, nay, even more, their courage and active support, says much positive to me about The Shire.

There, for those of you who have felt I have been too hard on the hobbits, lies my admiration for them.

In a chapter which brings us another very strong experience of the threat these Black Riders bring, we also have one of the finest examples of the worth of the community in The Shire. These people and their decency and their community are what Frodo will be fighting to save.

[Aiwendil]

This chapter is very similar in both form and content to the previous one.

Form - the first part consists of a journey, with two appearances of the Black Riders (well, one actual appearance plus the screech) to develop tension. The second part is a "safe-place" scene where the Hobbits rest and are fed. Notice that, just as with the scene with Gildor, the Farmer Maggot scene begins with the threat of danger - though here it is only Frodo's imagined fear of Maggot's dogs.

Content - as with the previous chapter, we are still in the Shire and the goal is to reach the house at Crickhollow. Also, in functional terms, both chapters have the basic task of slowly building up suspense via the Black Riders. We have so far had one overheard conversation with a Black rider, three actual visual encounters, one screech, one reported conversation, and one trick encounter (with Merry). It is no easy thing to do what Tolkien is doing. On the one hand, you want to delay the actual confrontation with the Black Riders as long as possible, for that is how you increase the suspense. On the other hand, if the Black Riders don't make enough appearances, the reader will not be reminded of their threat. So every little incident is worthwhile - even the trick at the end of the chapter with Merry serves to remind us of the danger.

Incidentally, cutting across by Maggot's fields is, by my count, the first of three shortcuts that the Hobbits will take on their way to Rivendell (the others being through the Old Forest and across the Midgewater Marshes). The first was rather a success; they evaded the Black Riders and met up with Maggot. It's interesting to compare this with the other two.

[davem]

I have to advise anyone who can to read the early drafts of this chapter to see Tolkien's achievement here in context. In short, the early drafts are among the worst things he ever set down on paper, & he got stuck for 6 months at the end of it. Farmer Maggot as a complete psychopath, an interminable dialogue between the hobbits on the disadvantages of living in a two storey house (what if you found you had left your handkerchief upstairs & had to go all the way up there to get it, etc, etc). The final descent into farce - an invisible Bingo wandering round Maggot's parlour, drinking his beer & running off with hat - is truly awful, & one can only dread where the story might have ended up if Tolkien's writers block hadn't intervened to save us.

Comparing that to what we have brings home Tolkien's skill as an artist. The final version is perfect, as has been pointed out so well. One thing did strike me, though, & that's Sam's attitude to Elves on the one hand & to Bucklanders on the other. The elves he is in awe of, even though they are strangers, & one would expect him to be at least suspicious of them. The Bucklanders, on the other hand, he is suspicious of. What's Tolkien saying here about the nature of predudice?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Where does one find these early drafts?

[HerenIstarion]

Books V-IX of HoME series

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

In short, the early drafts are among the worst things he ever set down on paper

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly they are not quite as good as the final version, and certainly if one inserted them into the finished version of LotR, one would have far inferior product. But in their own way I think they are not so bad. If LotR had turned out to be simply a sequel to The Hobbit, in more or less its style and on its scale, they might not have worked too badly. What I think these early drafts really show is how long it took Tolkien to figure out what sort of a book it was he was writing.

[Carorëiel]

I'm reading Fellowship now for the fifth or sixth time, and every time I'm struck by different things as I go along. In this read of "A Short Cut to Mushrooms," two things stood out that I don't think ever really occurred to me before.

I think the first may tie in with what davem was asking about prejudice:

Originally Posted by davem

One thing did strike me, though, & that's Sam's attitude to Elves on the one hand & to Bucklanders on the other. The elves he is in awe of, even though they are strangers, & one would expect him to be at least suspicious of them. The Bucklanders, on the other hand, he is suspicious of. What's Tolkien saying here about the nature of predudice?

In addition to Sam's acceptance (and awe) of the Elves and suspicion of the Bucklanders, we have the display of the Bucklanders' attitude toward those who live in Hobbiton. Farmer Maggot says, "'You should never have gone mixing yourself up with Hobbiton folk, Mr. Frodo. Folk are queer up there.'" This is, of course, the inverse of what the Gaffer says in "A Long Expected Party" when he's telling the story of how Frodo was orphaned: "'Anyway: there was this Mr. Frodo left an orphan and stranded, as you might say, among those queer Bucklanders.'" This bit with Farmer Maggot had always seemed to be nicely amusing in the same sort of at-home-with-the-hobbits vein as much of the opening chapters, but this time through I got to thinking about just how good Tolkien is at subtly weaving social commentary through the narrative. (This certainly isn't the first time he does it in Fellowship; I just hadn't picked up on this instance of it before.) Of course, everyone is queer to someone else, and no one, really, is queer at all.

The second thing that jumped out at me has to do with Merry's appearance at the end of the chapter and the brief suspicion that he is a Black Rider. My father read LotR to me for the first time when I was very young, so I can't remember not knowing what was going to happen at any particular juncture. I can't remember experiencing this scene for the first time and not knowing that the rider was really Merry and that Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Farmer Maggot were in no danger at that point. So, as I was reading the chapter this time, I tried to imagine reading it for the first time. And what struck me was just how much of a relief it would be to expect the horrible and unknown but get a friend. Of course, this is something Tolkien does so many times throughout LotR (in "The Shadow of the Past," Frodo and Gandalf suspect a spy outside the window, but it turns out to be Sam; in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" and "Strider," Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin suspect the ranger of being a potential foe, but he turns out to be a friend and a guide; in "The White Rider," Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas fear they have encountered Saruman, but it turns out to be Gandalf; and so on) that one might even refer to it as a recurring theme. Is there a connection with Tolkien's theory of the eucatastrophe here?

[Firefoot]

"They seem above my likes and dislikes, so to speak," answered Sam slowly. "It don't seem to matter what I think about them. Thye are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were."
Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seemed to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew. But it looked like the old Sam Gamgee sitting there, except that his face was unusually thoughtful.

I think that this is an interesting insight into Sam's true character - the whole conversation is, really. Like Frodo, this is a side of Sam's personality that we have not really seen. He shows great perception of the Elves, and we see that he is a 'deeper' character than we had been led to believe. (He had been saying farewell to the beer barrel...)

Another thing that struck me was how young and inexperienced Pippin seemed, both in this chapter and the last one, though I did not really notice it until this one. He speaks very lightly of the Black Riders, he goes out singing on the grass while Frodo eats, and is on the whole a very jovial and light-hearted character. Even though he is a part of the 'Conspiracy' as we later find out, he still does not understand the danger of the Black Riders (even less than Frodo) and the seriousness of Frodo's plight.

One final trivial thing: I don't think I ever really understood that it was raining as they cut cross-country from Woodhall to Farmer Maggot's property. It sets a much different tone than if it was, say, sunny.

[mark12_30]

davem wrote:

the early drafts are among the worst things he ever set down on paper

I'm with Aiwendiil on this one. I agree they are in a completely different tone; they are more in the spirit of Tom Bombadil than Sauron vs The West.

Lord of the Rings is an epic at the same time that it is a fairy tale. "It feels different near the Shire, " says littlemanpoet, and I agree with him.

Tolkien later wrote a poem about (Bombadil) called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," published in Oxford Magazine in 1934, long before the writing of the Lord of the Rings began.

Bombadiil went boating, and Bombadil and Maggot were old friends laughing about practical jokes, long before Bingo came into being.

I think of Bingo and Frodo as two different hobbits, just as I think of Strider and Trotter as two different characters. Would Arwen have been disappointed if she had to settle for Trotter? Probably. But that doesn't make Trotter uninteresting to me.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly they are not quite as good as the final version, and certainly if one inserted them into the finished version of LotR, one would have far inferior product. But in their own way I think they are not so bad. If LotR had turned out to be simply a sequel to The Hobbit, in more or less its style and on its scale, they might not have worked too badly. What I think these early drafts really show is how long it took Tolkien to figure out what sort of a book it was he was writing.

Ok then, I'll give some of the hobbit's conversation, & we can vote on the quality, & whether we would have had a bestseller on our hands:

'Fancy climbing upstairs to bed!' said Odo. 'That seems to me most inconvenient. Hobbits aren't birds.'

'I don't know.' said Bingo. 'It isn't as bad as it sounds; though personally I never like looking out of upstairs windows, it makes me a bit giddy. There are some houses that have three stages, bedrooms above bedrooms. I slept in one once long ago on a holiday; the wind kept me awake all night.'

'What a nuisance, if you want a handkerchief or something when you are downstairs, & find it is upstairs,' said Odo.

'You could keep handkerchiefs downstairs, if you wished', said Frodo.

'You could, but I don't believe anybody does.'

'That is not the houses' fault,' said Bingo, 'it is just the silliness of the hobbits that live in them.

(Long paragraph on the Elf Towers)

'If I ever live in a house, I shall keep everything I want downstairs, & only go up when I don't want anything' or perhaps I shall have a cold supper upstairs in the dark on a starry night.'

'And have to carry plates & things downstairs, if you don't fall all the way down,' laughed Odo.

'No!' said Bingo. 'I shall have wooden plates & bowls, & throw them out of the window. There will be thick grass all round my house.'

But you would still have to carry your supper upstairs.' said Odo.

'O well then, perhaps I should not have supper upstairs,' said Bingo. 'It was only just an idea.'

The 'farce' as Christopher calls it, of the events in Maggot's house, have to be read in full to be truly appreciated.

Sorry, but to me this rubbish is infinitely inferior to even the most twee stuff in the Hobbit.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Where does one find these early drafts?

Books V-IX of HoME series

Some of us who have these books are reading the corresponding chapters and discussing them here, on the Chapter-by-Chapter Companion thread. It's quite interesting to compare the early drafts and the finished product!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

It also explains why one can come away with one 'take' on a character (I'm thinking Gollum here) and find when rereading that there are small passages that don't completely support the overall picture one has formed.

Thanks H-I and Estelyn!

[Boromir88]

Bethberry said:

Their hospitality, nay, even more, their courage and active support, says much positive to me about The Shire.

No doubt, it is good to see friendly hobbits such as Farmer Cotton, Gaffer Gamgee, and the Cotton family. They all help out Frodo in some way, by standing up to the Black Riders, by just bringing him in and giving him some food and rest, or other reasons. This would no doubt be the good of the shire, but where there's a good there's always a bad.

The Sackville-Bagginses and Ted Sandyman quickly come to mind as the "bad" of the Shire. Also, you have the people of Hobbiton and Michel Delving thinking the Bucklanders/Marish hobbits are queer. Then the Hobbits of Buckland and The Marish thinking the Hobbiton hobbits are queer. All around you have most hobbits thinking Bilbo as queer. Bilbo is one of the few hobbits I respect since he actually got off his butt and did something. You sense a lot of dislike amongst the people in the Shire, if you think of other races there isn't so much dislike. The men of Dale and the dwarves of Erebor had a strong relationship. All the elves helped eachother out, Elrond and Galadriel bot in their own ways helped the fellowship, Celeborn helped Thranduil. Most of the Men of Gondor were united. There were some people who didn't like eachother I know some of the men were jealous of the dwarves riches, and of course the dislike between the dwarves and elves. The Hobbits seem to me as more disconnected, these people don't like these from another area, all the hobbits think down upon the ones that actually go away and help the world (Frodo, Sam, Bilbo..etc). Hobbits are just a race I can't like too much besides Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pip, the Took household, Bilbo, Farmer Cotton and Maggot.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I admit that this is a pretty slight chapter – one of the least momentous in the book, and yet it has always been one of my favourites. The stouthearted Maggot is a wonderful character, and a ‘type’ of folk the likes of which it has been my very good fortune to know in real life (having grown up around farmers).

There are three points in this chapter that I would like to point out, in addition to those already mentioned.

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature.

This particular sentence has never really leaped out at me before, but after the discussions in the Monster thread I could not help but notice the part about the Wraith as being “evil and lonely.” It’s an odd sentiment I think; there is here at one and the same time fear of the Rider and a kind of sympathy for him/it. The “cry” of the “creature” is a “wail”: very sad. And then to respond to the cry with a recognition of loneliness, just as the hobbits are about to go into Maggot’s house to enjoy his hospitality. . .well, it almost makes me feel sorry for the Nazgûl!

Frodo’s memory of having been chased by Maggot’s dogs “all the way to the Ferry” introduces an interesting contrast between the everyday ‘dangers’ of the Shire and the new dangers that have invaded it (and that are now chasing Frodo right to the Ferry!). I don’t think that there’s any kind of Maggot-Nazgûl comparison (although maggots do eat carrion… ) but it is interesting that Frodo here is reflecting on the greatest fear of his innocent youth as he is simultaneously confronting the terror that will be his future.

That last point is about Mrs Maggot:

His wife stood in the light of the open door.

The association between women, light and the safety of home is a big and recurring theme in the book, and here we see it for the first time. Mrs Maggot has welcomed the hobbits and given them shelter, and like Galadriel later on, she sees them off upon the next dangerous leg of their journey after having given them marvellous food, and some good advice (“‘Don’t go arguing with any foreigners and come straight back!’” ). Again, I don’t think that I can make much of a Mrs. Maggot/Galadriel argument, but the foreshadowing is there, I think.

It’s significant that it comes here, too, as this is the hobbits’ departure from the Shire-proper. Yes, they are still in hobbit-lands, but as soon as they cross the River they are out of their homeland and on the (settled) edge of the Wild. I find it compelling that it is a woman who sees them off and provides them with the supplies they need for the journey…

EDIT

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hobbits are just a race I can't like too much besides Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pip, the Took household, Bilbo, Farmer Cotton and Maggot.

You do of course realise, B88, that those are pretty much the only hobbits you get to really know in the course of the book: perhaps if we know more about the other hobbits we would like them just as much! (Well, maybe not Lobelia and Otho. . . )

[Estelyn Telcontar]

women, light and the safety of home

I think Goldberry would be an even more direct comparison to Mrs. Maggot, Fordim. She is heard, not seen before they enter the lighted threshold - perhaps a connecting link between the Hobbit woman and the Elven ruler, slightly more distant in character and race but not yet wholly strange. We'll discuss that more when the Hobbits get there, but I did want to mention it in this connection.

[HerenIstarion]

In the light of recent development of the thread, it may be advisable to take a glance at the following:

Farmer Maggot and Tom Bombadil

and

Bombadil's reference to Farmer Maggot

cheers

[davem]

Any significance in the fact that this chapter begins with Frodo waking up? On his return to the Shire he tells Merry that its 'like falling asleep again'. The last chapter ended with Frodo falling into a dreamless sleep. Its like a threshold has been crossed by Frodo's falling asleep, yet in a sense he's actually 'waking up'. His life in the Shire is the 'dream' from which he awakens into the wide world, & at the end he falls asleep again.

I find it strange in a way - the Shire is our mundane world, the world we live our lives in. Middle earth is a fantastical realm of Elves & wizards & monsters. Yet through Frodo Tolkien seems almost to be saying that the Shire is the dreamworld & Faerie is true waking reality. The hobbits who go off & have adventures are the ones who 'wake up' from the collective dream of the Shire. And its a wizard, in Bilbo & Frodo's case (& as Bilbo mentions at the beginning of the Hobbit its also Gandalf who inspires other hobbits to run off & have adventures) who begins it all. Gandalf is the 'awakener', the one who arouses people to go & live life & have adventures, & do important things, meaningful things. He seems to spend a lot of his time waking people up - Theoden springs to mind - or trying to - Denethor.

Perhaps this chapter & the last are where it all begins, the 'transition phase' - the last one had Black riders & Elves, but the Black Riders were almost like nightmares, & the Elves like a waking dream, like images which float through the mind just before we fall asleep, or fully wake up - which is what Frodo does at the end of the last chapter. Now he is waking up, & the things which previously were dreams (good & bad) become increasingly real. In the first chapter Frodo had dreamed (though its not mentioned that he had these dreams while asleep (because he was always asleep in the Shire?)) of 'crossing the River one day'. At the end of this chapter he's at the edge of that river, about to cross it & 'wake up' fully on the other side.

H-I Thanks for those links. I think Child's reference to Tolkien's original conception of Maggot as being not a hobbit, but a creature like Tom ties in well with Estelyn's comparison of Mrs Maggot/Goldberry. So, we'd have Farmer & Mrs Maggot symbolising the ordered, 'domesticated' life, & Tom Goldberry the more natural life in the wild wood, but both couples would in a sense be 'archetypes' - well, in the early drafts Tom does call himself an 'aborigine'. I can't help feeling that there is some underlying symbolism of these 'archetypal' couples running beneath the surface of LotR.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature.

This is reminiscent of Morgoth's cry in Lammoth to me, like a thin echo of it, if you’ll pardon the pun. The mention of the word ‘lonely’ also stands in great contrast to the Maggots welcoming the hobbits into their house. What is the Wraith lonely for? For the ring? Is there I reason why Tolkien chose this word over another besides the sound it conjures in the mind?

This conversation has brought up two things that inspire fear in Frodo. But one, the lesser, has been brought upon himself by his own misdeeds, and he is forgiven. The other is more or less inherited along with the ring, and yet turns out to pose the more dire and persistent threat. It is larger than himself.

[The Saucepan Man]

I haven't finished reading the chapter yet ( ), but I thought that I'd jump in here because the description of the Black Rider's wail stood out for me as well.

What is the Wraith lonely for?

It seems to me that this perfectly portrays the Ringwraiths' existence, in contrast to that of the Hobbits. A Wraith's existence is lonely. Although there are nine of them, there is no comradeship between them. They are bound together only by the Nine Rings and by the One. Which contrasts nicely with the bonds of friendship between the Hobbits which we have already seen and which we will see yet more of as the book develops. It also sets them up as the counterpoint to the Nine Walkers who, although brought together by the Ring (ie the need to destroy it), develop bonds of fellowship.

Yes, it's a lonely life being a Wraith. As Fordim says, one almost feels sorry for them. Indeed, one can feel sympathy for what they once were (although we do not, of course, learn of that for a while).

[Iarwain]

In response to Fordim Hedgethistle (I think I spelled that correctly), by the time the book was over, Lobelia had become one of my favourite non-fellowship hobbits. I always find it tremendously sad when she dies.

But, about those mushrooms...

I like davem's comments on the Shire. I think it's a very romantic idea (in a sense of the word). On the other hand, I disagree with those who say that the earlier drafts are bad. From what I read, they seem quite amusing, and perhaps they would have served well as a last glimpse of the Hobbit-centric view of Middle-Earth. This is not to say that I like the drafts more than the actual, though...

Hm... I seem to be "at a loss for words" this morning.


Good-day to all ,
Iarwain

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

One little mistake and you end up a bad guy, wearing black for an age and then some!

Sorry Iarwain, but going back for a moment.....

Yes, I agree that the Ringwraiths are lonely creatures, as appear most of the evil folk that populate this story. It is the timing of the wail that seems odd though. But it does fit in well, contrasting the comradeship of the hobbits, with the colorless, hollowed-out existence of the Nazgûl. But I could more easily see them expressing frustration in their chase, rather than loneliness at precisely that point in time. I suppose it serves to heighten the reader’s curiosity about them, or maybe the hobbits’ curiosity? It does make them seem more 3-dimensional, and not just flat 'bad guys'.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I was cruising through the Downs when I ran across this post by Mirkgirl from a couple of years ago. It's a long (and wonderful) post but I would like to quote a bit of it here:

Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book - first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.

Now this quote covers parts of the book other than this chapter so I don't want to go far with this point -- what is more, I don't need to as Mirkgirl has already done such a tremendous job in her original post. But I did want to address a point that's had me thinking for a long time -- it always seemed a bit odd to me that Merry was not present for the first stage of the journey; this seemed to reduce his importance to it somehow, but now I'm beginning to wonder if I've had it all wrong. We've been talking so far about how the journey in these early chapters is a process of growth (or maturation, as in the case of Pippin) for the hobbits (and let me applaud davem for his brilliant post about waking up) -- is it not possible that Merry's absence from this stage of the journey is an indication that he is already as 'grown up' as he will become? That he is already mature in ways that the other hobbits aren't? It seems that given his association with the Nazgul make here so early, that he is already in some way ready for the task he will undertake in the death of the Witch-King.

All of which leads me to this thought: Pippin is to Sam as Merry is to Frodo. The first pair are relatively naive and innocent and will come to have their horizons broadened and their understanding expanded, but they will remain the essentially simple folk they were at the beginning (Pippin intellectually, Sam morally). The second pair are already what they need to be to accomplish their quests (that is, they are already fully associated with the darkness they must overcome - Frodo the Ring, and Merry the Nazgul).

This is a fresh new thought so I'm not really sure where I might be headed with it. Which is why I float it. . .

One More Thing: Merry's late-coming to the quest is also, I suspect, a forerunner to how things will work at the end of the book as the Fellowship slowly dissolves. In the beginning, they come together not all at once, but bit by bit; the mirror image of how it ends.

[Boromir88]

Fordhim,

Possibly, I'm sure there are many hobbits, if we had the chance to know better, I would like better. From what I do know is Hobbits from Hobbiton don't like Hobbits from Buckland and vice versa. Hobbits do seem to be a relatively peaceful, simple people, but anyone they don't understand or doesn't do anything "normal" to hobbits is thought of as unhobbit-like and queer.

[Gorwingel]

Well I know that I haven't been completely into these discussions, but I will offer my input on this chapter

One thing I noticed while reading it last night is there is a lot of mentions of food and drink. And it's not just the normal food and drink, but it is food and drink that stands out apart from other mentions of food in the book (quite like Lembas). Like for example there is most notably the elven bread (which in the beginning Frodo has to devote his complete attention to it to enjoy), the Golden Perch brew ("Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones", very good quote), The elven drink ("...pale golden in colour: it had the scent of a honey made of many flowers..."), and of course the Mushrooms in the basket at the end from Farmer Maggot, which end the problems Frodo had with Maggot once and for all.

And then another part that stood out to me is the entire part (which is also mentioned above), where Maggot tells Frodo that he should have never associated himself with the "Hobbiton folk". Basically telling him that him moving there is the source of all of his problems. And even though he is partly right, this stood out because to me it's a very hobbitish response. He is not looking that his problems could have came from the world around them, he is saying that the problems came from the hobbits that he didn't know very much, again reinforcing the fact that the hobbits tend to mistrust strangers.

And this question may seem competely random, but why does Tolkien use the word "waggon" instead of "wagon"? I just kind of find it interesting, because this is the first and only place I have ever seen the word "waggon".

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

According to my second favourite book (The Oxford English Dictionary) "waggon" is simply a variant spelling of "wagon." It is a bit more archaic, but there were plenty of cited uses of the form from the 1800s and even one from 1939.

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

I've got nothing to back this up other than my conviction that the Shire is Sarehole.

[Guinevere]

I think that this is an interesting insight into Sam's true character - the whole conversation is, really. Like Frodo, this is a side of Sam's personality that we have not really seen. He shows great perception of the Elves, and we see that he is a 'deeper' character than we had been led to believe.

I agree very much with Firefoot. For me this part about Sam was what impressed me most in this chapter! It was never my impression that he was just a simpleton - he is just not used to put into words what's going on in his mind. And also Frodo understands now that there is more to Sam than he had thought.
Sam's encounter and conversation with the Elves was a revelation for him. He feels different and even has a kind of foreboding. He knows that they are going a long road into darkness and when Frodo warns him that they might not come back from it, this doesn't deter him - quite the contrary, he is set on never leaving his beloved master.

I don't rightly know what I want; but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.

Very much later, on the pass of Cirith Ungol, when he believes Frodo is dead,and trying to make up his mind, he will remember these very words .

[Bêthberry]

About Gorwingel's question of "waggon":

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

I think you could well be right about that Fordim. Particularly since the various county dialects of England have maintained their own unique spellings and pronunciations which have not made it into the canonical OED, which we all know is famous for its omissions of non-canonical works and writers.

For intance, 'kine' as the plural of cow, from Old English no less, was still widely used in Yorkshire at least up until the 1850's. (I can name an 1848 novel it was used in.)

I think Eric Partridge has a dictionary of dialect words, doesn't he? Or is it just Shakespeare's Bawdy and Slang and Unconventional English? I'm sure there must be sources for dialects from Birmingham and the Welsh borders.

[Kuruharan]

I think that Gorwingel and HerenIstarion have mentioned (or linked to) something that is worthy of further discussion.

And then another part that stood out to me is the entire part (which is also mentioned above), where Maggot tells Frodo that he should have never associated himself with the "Hobbiton folk". Basically telling him that him moving there is the source of all of his problems. And even though he is partly right, this stood out because to me it's a very hobbitish response. He is not looking that his problems could have came from the world around them, he is saying that the problems came from the hobbits that he didn't know very much, again reinforcing the fact that the hobbits tend to mistrust strangers.

Farmer Maggot is not the hobbit from whom we would expect such insular thinking. Of all the hobbits in the Shire he is probably one who has some of the broadest experience. He’s even friends with Tom Bombadil for goodness sake, and how many people can claim that!? As we will see, Tom had highly complementary things to say about Maggot, aside from Tolkien developing their friendship elsewhere.

Why would Tolkien have Maggot say the things that he said? Was Tolkien trying to reinforce the typical hobbit way of thinking through this atypical hobbit or was there something else going on there?

[Bombadil]

Very ironic indeed. Up to the line Maggot uses,

'You should never have gone mixing yourself up with Hobbiton folk, Mr. Frodo. Folk are queer up there.'

I don't believe he proved himself as of yet. In that I mean as an extraordinary hobbit. He was very generous, but he also knew Merry and Pippin. Bilbo (although extraordinary) took 13 dwarves into his home without question-well not explicitly at least. Therefore I would think re-readers of the book would question such a thing, knowing at that point his personality. But was it meant to be pondered when his extraordinary character and deeds came after this talk?

One more thing I'd like to point out is Maggot's description of the black rider:

'But this fellow was the most outlandish I have ever set eyes on.'

Perhaps i'm over-analyzing, but that is a very hobbit-like characteristic. Of associating those past their borders as queer. I'm guessing the black rider was the most extreme thing he had ever seen, and to describe that he called it 'the most outlandish.'

Before his friendship with Bombadil is known, and his deed of carting the hobbits to the ferry, is he really any different than a normal hobbit?

[Legolas]

Bilbo (although extraordinary) took 13 dwarves into his home without question-well not explicitly at least.

Maybe he hasn't proved himself entirely yet, but his deed measures up and exceeds Bilbo's of bringing in the dwarves. The circumstances were very different - in Bilbo's time, there was no talk of dangerous Black Riders about. Further, Maggot actually spoke with the Rider. The Rider asked “Have you seen Baggins?”; Maggot still accepts Frodo into his home knowing that he is putting himself in the potential line of danger.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

As a Yorkshireman I can't let this pass! thee, thine, thou (usually contracted to tha') are still common in Yorkshire dialect, as are middle english words like 'lake'/'laking' = play/playing. ('That's thine, tha' 'nus' = 'That's your's, you know'. 'Gi' o'er lakin' abaht' = 'Give over (stop) playing around')

Not perhaps a trivial point given Tolkien's interest in the way language both changes & survives over periods.

On to the 'loneliness' of the nazgul. One thing that I find interesting in Tolkien is that names have meanings - every place & personal name means something, & often has a story attatched, a history. We only know two of the nazgul the Witch King of Angmar, & Khamul (&isn't Khamul a title) Do any of them still have personal names, or have they gone the way of the Mouth of Sauron? If they have no names, they have no lifestory, no personal history, no memories - were they married, did they have children? We'll never know about most of them, & we have very little knowledge about the Witch King - ironically, his enemies probably know more about him than he does himself. Imagine having no identity, no past, being simply driven by the will of Sauron. I wonder if the terror they inspire in others is perhaps down to those others catching some kind of glimpse into what it is to be a Nazgul. When you encounter a nazgul, its like looking suddenly into nothingness.

[Osse]

<shudder>

Good speculations dav...

Farmer Maggot knew that he was probably putting himself in some danger by harbouring the other hobbits, yet he could not possibly fathom how much, nor how terrible. Maggot was willing to "see off" the 'men', with his dogs and his axe!

I wonder if he'd still have been willing to help if he had known the peril he was in. I'd say probably yes. Rather than see the four hobbits face that peril alone, he'd try and help. But perhaps if he knew the real threat, things would not have gone as well!

[Boromir88]

Osse,

I believe the Farmer, if he knew the full peril, probably still would have helped. Maggot said something like "I'll send off those riders, I'll tell them you're dead...I'll protect you." So, for me I believe he would have helped out, but he wouldn't have been much help. If the riders found out Maggot was "harbouring" them Maggot would have been no match for ONE RIDER!!! Farmer Maggot did his job and helped out the hobbits in whatever way he could, I can ask no more for him.

[The Saucepan Man]

While Maggot could have no way of knowing the true nature of the Black Rider, he nevertheless does show great bravery in light of the facts that he does know.

He is faced with an imposing black-cloaked fellow on horseback. His normally fearsome dogs have just sloped off in terror. It must have been clear to him that this fellow could do him great harm if he chose to. And yet he gives him short shrift, telling him to clear off. And when the Rider asks him to tell him if he sees "Baggins", tempting him with the promise of gold, Maggot makes clear that he will not do so.

It is to Farmer Maggot's great credit that, at great risk to himself, he offers the Hobbits shelter and drives them to the Buckleberry Ferry. Combined with Gaffer Gamgee's similar steadfastness in the previous chapter and Sam's resolve to stick with Frodo whatever the danger, this is real evidence of what we were told in the Prologue about Hobbits being "tough" and "difficult to daunt". We are beginning to get a good idea of the great courage that these small folk are capable of, and which will come to characterise them later on, Sam in particular.

On another subject, has anyone else noticed the recurring theme of nurturing and protective trees? In the previous chapter, they make camp on the first night in a patch of fir wood, within the "deep resin-scented darkness of the trees". The next day, they take a meal inside "the huge hulk" of a hollow but living tree. And they spend the second night with the Elves in a "wide space like a hall, roofed by the boughs of trees". Then, this chapter opens with Frodo having slept in a bower:

... made by a living tree with branches laced and drooping to the ground; his bed was of fern and grass, deep and soft and strangely fragrant. The sun was shining through the fluttering leaves, which were still green upon the tree.

And later, when they take lunch, they shelter from the rain beneath an elm tree. Indeed, the belt of trees provides cover for them from the Black Riders and they feel afraid at first when they leave its shelter.

Not surprising I suppose, given Tolkien's love of trees, but the extent to which they are used as a device to provide the Hobbits with rest, shelter and safety in these two chapters rather struck me (and is a precursor to the safe haven provided by the forest of Lothlorien).

Of course, some of them will find themselves inside another tree in two chapter's time, although one of an altogether different nature ...

Finally, two words that struck me as interesting:

The kitchen was lit with candles and the fire was mended.

and

Mrs. Maggot will be worriting with the night getting thick.

I like the idea of a fire being mended, since it suggests that its natural state is alight and that it is somehow "broken" when extinguished. And "worriting" is just a great word: one which I now intend to make great use of.

[Bêthberry]

Why, SpM, it is a pleasure to see you taking up my point in the the third post here about the value of the Maggots.

Well, I for one would be very happy to have neighbours such as Farmer and Mrs. Maggot. Their hospitality, nay, even more, their courage and active support, says much positive to me about The Shire.

Is it immodest to quote oneself? I think not, given some of the hesitations we have seen here about the Farmer and his missus.

It would probably be well to point out, if the image is not too earthy for some, that maggots, the creatures, eat dead flesh.

[The Saucepan Man]

Why, SpM, it is a pleasure to see you taking up my point in the the third post here about the value of the Maggots.

Hehe. When bereft of original thought, simply pass someone else's off as your own. (It was wholly unintentional, I can assure you. )

Well, I for one would be very happy to have neighbours such as Farmer and Mrs. Maggot. Their hospitality, nay, even more, their courage and active support, says much positive to me about The Shire.

Funnily enough, it is Maggot's Hobbitish parochial nature (a quality that has been commented on negatively in earlier discussions) which, at least in part, leads him to distrust this "outlandish" outlander. As I think has been mentioned before, though, it seems somehow incongruous that someone so insular (as evidenced in his comments on the folk of Hobbiton) should have dealings with a strange fellow like Tom Bombadil.

It would probably be well to point out, if the image is not too earthy for some, that maggots, the creatures, eat dead flesh.

For this reason, maggots were (and indeed still are) used to clean wounds. Would it be going too far to suggest that this might be symbolic of the safe haven the Maggots offer after the Hobbits' harrowing journey? (Answer = probably. )

[Bêthberry]

When bereft of original thought, simply pass someone else's off as your own.

Rather, share and share alike, I'd say.

Yes, I knew that about the use of maggots in cleaning wounds, having heard a story of one poor chap whose friend snuck a bottle of spirits up to his room. The spirits might have improved the patient's spirits for a time but they unfortunately also killed the maggots. The patient died of his gangrene.

My thoughts about the symbolic portent of 'maggot' were slightly different than yours, Sauce. I thought of Farmer Maggot's courage and refusal to be cowed by the Black Rider. Maggot eradicates the stench of fear. I guess technically, though, we don't know yet that the Black Riders are artificially preserved flesh, do we? Gah, can't even remember chapters I read a week ago.

[davem]

Originally Posted by SpM

I like the idea of a fire being mended, since it suggests that its natural state is alight and that it is somehow "broken" when extinguished. And "worriting" is just a great word: one which I now intend to make great use of.

Have to say these words didn't register on me in the same way, as both of them were in my childhood, & to an extent still are, quite common usages here. I think 'mending' in this sense derives from 'amending', putting right.

Incidentally, Chambers dictionary includes in the definition of maggot: magg'oty: full of maggots; crotchety(ie short-tempered); very drunk. Going by the original character of Farmer Maggot, violent, short tempered, & apparenetly a bit of a drinker, I wonder if Tolkien is playing word games with us!