Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Aiwendil]

I've reviewed the "Union of Maedros" section. Hopefully my suggestions below are clear; if not, I can provide my full proposed text for this section in the private forum.

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> <GA {In this}[But in due] time {Maidros}[Maeðros] began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. For new hope ran through the land, {because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien,} and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

Here, the two sentences from GA are redundant - in spirit and purport if not literally - with the fuller statement that follows from QS37, and it reads very poorly in my opinion. I would remove the insertion from GA almost entirely; I think there is only one small piece of it which contains anything not explicit or implicit in the QS37 text:

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable <GAand that fear only gave him his power>; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

Above, I’ve also fixed a typo: “lenghtened” for “lenghtened”.

However, there is also a mostly redundant passage to the same effect from the Narn which is used a bit later in this text. I think it should be removed from that location and, as the latest version of this passage, should probably be used here:

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable <GAand that fear only gave him his power>; {for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.} <Narn for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead.> Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>

This immediately follows a passage from GA telling of the preparations of the folk of Haleth for battle, and I think in the new context it requires an adversative at the beginning:

<QS But {t}he treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>

{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men

I think that with the additions preceding this, a new paragraph is called for at the start of this sentence.

{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead.

As mentioned above, this, from the Narn, is largely redundant with the equivalent statement from QS37, which has already been used above (NA-EX-09). At any rate, we should not talk about the new hope due to the deeds of Beren and Luthien twice. I would use this earlier, as I mentioned, and here I would just do:

{But} [I]n the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth {there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead. In that year also} the great counsels of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] were almost complete, and {with the reviving strength of the Eldar and the Edain the advance of Morgoth was stayed, and the Orcs were driven back from Beleriand.}

I would also start a new paragraph at the beginning of the above quoted part.

for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband.
But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon

I think the paragraph break should be at the beginning of this section, not before the “But”:

for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >
Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband. But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon

[Aiwendil]

One miscellaneous typo:

‘Your words are {unwise} NA-EX-27.12 <CoH too proud>,’ said Mablung, though {in his heart he felt pity for Túrin. ‘}<CoH he pitied the young man. ‘Learn wisadom!>

Typo - “wisadom” for “wisdom”.

On the Turin/Gwindor/Finduilas material - I’ve just realized that I was working from an old version of the text here. Indeed, it seems I had already brought up my issues with repetitions between the prose and verse (see here) and the passages had already been re-arranged to improve this. I’ve re-read the section and found a few typos, but only two spots where I still think we have a redundancy stemming from multiple sources.

Because of his powers and his skill in warfare with Orcs Túrin found favour with Orodreth, and was admitted to his council. Now Túrin had no liking for the manner of fighting of the Elves of Nargothrond, of ambush and stealth andsecret arrow, and hr urged that it be abandoned, and that they should use their strength to attackthe servants of the Enemy, to open battle and pursuit.>

Typo: missing a space in “attackthe”.

<CoH had had a plimps of the power of Morgoth, and had some inkling>

Typo: “plimps” for “glimpse”.

<CoH {As}as its north march Nargothrond now held the ‘Debatable Land’ about the sources od Ginglith and Narog

Typo: “od” for “of”

{and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.} NA-EX-51.1 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him

I think there is a { missing here. Should it be:

{and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. {Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.} NA-EX-51.1 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him

NA-TI-27 <Sil77 Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run.

The first two sentences here repeat what was just told, much more fully, in the Narn material. I would delete them, and change the conjunction that follows:

NA-TI-27 <Sil77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But}Thus Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run.

And going to Finduials he said to her:

Typo: “Finduials” for “Finduilas”.

Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'>
NA-EX-53.8 <CoH Then {Finduials}she rose, and queenly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? For I love you, Gwindor, and I am ashamed that I love you not more, but have taken a love even greater, from which I cannot escape. I did not seek it, and long I put it aside. But I have pity for your hurts, have pity on mine. Túrin loves me not; nor will.’

Here we repeat Finduilas’s statement that “Turin loves me not”; we must remove one of them. The second instance is crucial to the logic of the dialogue, so I think we must remove the first, though we can take from CoH the “son of Hurin” to refer back to Gwindor’s revalation of his lineage.

Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she {said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'}> NA-EX-53.8 <CoH {Then Finduilas} rose, and queenly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? For I love you, Gwindor, and I am ashamed that I love you not more, but have taken a love even greater, from which I cannot escape. I did not seek it, and long I put it aside. But I have pity for your hurts, have pity on mine. Túrin <CoH son of Húrin> loves me not; nor will.’

[Findegil]

I agree to much of this but not to all your changes:

English: I agree to eliminate ‘modern’ following your argument. But as we call our work ‘Translation from the Elvish’ the second might need a small revision only:

This version into NA-EX-02.1{'modern'} English, that is forms of NA-EX-02.2{English}[language] intelligible to living users of the English tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. ...

NA-TI-27: I think we should hold one sentence of what you would skip:

NA-TI-27 <QS77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but}And Túrin did not perceive what had befallen.{ And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent.} But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run. …

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

At long last I have made up my mind where to put Mîms Klage:

… For a little while they held off the Orcs climbing up the rock, but they had no shelter on the bare summit, and many were shot from below. Most valiant of these was Andróg, who fell NA-SL-02c mortally wounded by an arrow at the head of the outside stair.
Then Túrin and Beleg with the ten men left to them drew back to the center of the summit, where was a standing stone, and making a ring about it they defended themselves until all were slain save Beleg and Túrin, for over them the orcs cast nets. Túrin was bound and carried off; Beleg who was wounded was bound likewise, but he was laid on the ground with wrists and ankles tied to iron pins driven in to the rock. NA-EX-40.5{
}Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered Bar-en-Danwedh, which they defiled and ravaged.<Mîms Klage
Mîms Lament
>{They}The Orcs did not find Mîm, lurking in his caves, and when they had departed from Amon Rûdh Mîm appeared.NA-EX-40.6<Mîms Klage
Under a hill, in a wayless land,
lay a deep hole, …
…
Long paths he had wandered, homeless and cold,
The Petty-dwarf Mîm, NA-EX-40.7{two hundered}[hundereds of] years old.
All that he had made, the work of his hand,
…
Mîm spat in the sand and thus he spoke:

‘Tink-tink-tink, tink-tonk, tonk-tonk, tink!
…
‘All the things, that my eyes had seen, … since without them there is little left of him.
‘So I thought about a right way to store them, … which time had worn and the winds have devastated.
‘Clap-clip-clatter! … my hoard of memories and bygone years.
‘Did I sleep long? … spitting on the edge until it shone under the cruel stars in the dark and dreary places.
‘Thus they took from Mîm all his memories and all the joyful leaps and bounds of his mind, … that drives Men to madness, though they know nothing about it.
‘But now I am old and embittered, … But Mîm cannot forgive. The embers still smoulder in his heart. Tink-tonk, tonk-tink! No time to think!’
>He climbed on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpend a knife.
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b <QS77 And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him; but NA-SL-02.2b{ dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg
…

NA-EX-40.5: Here I removed a paragraph break because inserted the sub-title only one sentence later. We could go without the sub-title and may be even part of the intro, but I would rather keep both. If we use the sub-title, I found this to be the proper place to understand fully where he is coming from.
NA-EX-40.6: As said above we might skip some of the intro, but other wise I see not much to be changed in the text.
NA-EX-40.7: With the uncertainty we have about Mîm history before he meet Túrin, I find it saver to remove the 200 years.
I generally added speech marks to the beginning of Mîms lament and to each following paragraph. This more a question of general editing than of content, but still worth mentioning.
Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello. In my version I inserted the Mim's Lament just near the end of the previous chapted. I considered the text as a sort of poetic memory and at the end of the paragraph that Túrin was friendly with him.
I think in your version is this:

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm’s sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I think, part of the issue to place Mîms Klage, is that we are unsure of which events it reffers to. If the spitting into the sand is unconnected to the chocking smoke and near vomitting of the line before, then your placement is not that bad. But I would consider putting it in even earlier, so that the freindship with Túrin becomes the result of Mîm's statment in the end, that it is not good that he has such bad relationship to his 'neighnous'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Was this part I bolded from §15 of QS left out on purpose? Seems like a good bit, unless it contradicts something else that was changed that I haven't seen yet.

{From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Bëor, and Haleth}; for the sons of Bór, {Boromir}[Borlach], {Borlas}[Borlad], and {Borthandos}[Borthand], who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.

[Findegil]

It was left out not by any contradiction, but rather becaus we used The Grey Annalas as main source for our text, which includes this two passages (so far apart):

... They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. ...
...
NA-TI-04.8 <GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Bëor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maedros] was no more. ...

The only additional information from QS is that Bor's children left no heirs. But it is an information I think we should include. So I would place it thus, even so that is a bit of repetition (which I think is okay in recapitulation of the outcome of the battle):

NA-TI-04.8 <GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Bëor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children{.}NA-EX-22.4<QS{From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Bëor, and Haleth}; for the sons of Bór, {Boromir}[Borlach], {Borlas}[Borlad], and {Borthandos}[Borthand], who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.>
The March of {Maidros}[Maedros] was no more. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The only additional information from QS is that Bor's children left no heirs.

I also think "who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need" is a unique piece of information, even if it can be inferred by the action earlier described. This sentence serves as a final statement on the actions of Men in that battle, and I think it's important to include the sons of Bor explicitly in the list of those who "proved true at need."

Repetition isn't necessarily a bad thing, quite the contrary, when placed far enough apart, it reinforces what is important, not just to the reader but to the sub-creator.

[Findegil]

NA-EX-22.4: I think we are in agreement in this case.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Is there a place here for the newly published rhyming couplet of the CoH (from 1931/2)?

It goes quite in depth in regards to Hurin's final stand - here's a portion of it, since I'm unsure of posting the whole thing here (it's 171 lines long):

Thus Húrin lord of Hithlum fought.
His brother Huor pierced to heart
there fell before a venomed dart
his men were reaped like ripened wheat
and trampled under ruthless feet;
but none gave way, till alone he stood
between the desert and the wood,
and cast his broken shield away.
His thirty thanes about him lay,
his banner sewn with leaves of trees
was torn from shaft, and to his knees
he seven times was beaten low,
and seven times against the foe
he rose renewed, and clove a path
two-handed like a scyther’s swath
through thronging ranks of bending grass:
not yet could Morgoth’s servants pass.
Behind him was a narrow way
between the hills that southward lay,
and thither Turgon made retreat
to the vales of Sirion the fleet,
and saved the last of Finwë’s folk.
In the green shadows of the oak,
and up beneath the pinewoods dim,
and over mountain passes grim
he vanished from the darkened land
and passed into Beleriand,
and never after search nor tale,
nor any spy by hill or dale,
found ever echo of their feet.
Thus Húrin guarded their retreat,
and ever songs of elves him praise,
his name has sounded down the days
uncounted; for he kept his troth,
for death nor torment broke his oath
and death in the mouth of hell defied
and saved a remnant of the pride
and glory of the elves, that yet
a hope of vengeance, and a threat
lurked in the shadows unexplored,
a dream unquiet, a hanging sword.

[Findegil]

I think yes. It can not go in unchanged, but that does not mean it shouldn't be used at all. E.g. the dart killing Huor does later pierce his eye and not his haert.

Raspectfuly
Findegil